I'm looking for first-hand experience with the rifled Model 1842 reproductions as far as accuracy and power. I'm thinking of using one for elk hunting, probably with the Lyman minie. I'd like to know what accuracy is possible at 75 to 100 yards, and what loads are safe maximums. Yes, I know, these have recoil, but I am used to 140 grains FFg under an 800-grain conical in a .72 Kodiak double rifle. Thanks for any advice/experience.
While I don't have any personal experience with a repro rifled M1842, I can tell you that back in the mid-1850's when the Acting Master Armourer of the Harpers Ferry Arsenal, James Burton, conducted an in-depth series of experiments as to which particular rifle, caliber, twist rate, etc., produced the BEST ACCURACY- a rifled M1842 firing a Minie Ball produced the BEST ACCURACY of all the various arms, calibers, etc that were tested.
This series of expriments led to the development and the official adoption of the U.S. Model 1855 series of arms in .58 caliber.
So, why was a smaller caliber that was not as accurate adopted instead of a rifled M1842? Simply stated, the Ordnance Department felt that a .69 caliber rifle firing a heavy conical Minie Ball had too disadvantages compared to the less accurate, .58 caliber Minie Rifle.
1. The recoil of the .69 caliber rifle fining a Minie was much HEAVIER than the recoil generated by a .58 Minie Rifle firing a smaller and lighter bullet. It was felt that many soliders could not handle the recoil of the heavier .69 caliber arm IF a .69 caliber M1842 was adopted.
2. The weight of .69 caliber ammo that utilized a .69 caliber Minie BAll was considered prohibitive compared to .58 caliber Minie ammo. Keep in mind that in the 1850's, armies were often supplied with ammo that was transported over rough roads in wagons pulled by horses or mules. Back then, as today, logistics were a very important consideration for forces conducting operations in the field.
My main hesitation about firing a repro, rifled M1842 rifled-musket with a Minie Ball and the powder charge you mentioned would have to do more with the structural interigity of the barrel when the arm was fired.
In other words, a very heavy powder charge pushing a .69 caliber Minie Ball might generate some rather high pressures. Keep in mind that the M1842 barrel design was originally designed to fire much lighter .69 caliber ROUND BALLS that had a lot of "windage" when travelling down the bore because they were undersize.
Alwso, keep in mind the original M1842 were rifled as an afterthought. Matter of fact, the "progerssive depth rifling" was developed because the M1842 barrel walls were so THIN near the muzzle, that IF a deep constant depth rifling had been utilized, the barrel wall thickenss near the muzzle would have been almost "paper thin."
IF my heart was absoutely set on firing a rifled M1842 repro with a heavy powder charge, I would:
1. Sell or otherwise get rid of the Italian made barrel that comes on the repro rifled M1842- as some Italian made barrels are made from "free machining" steels for ease of mass production. I don't know IF Armi-Sport does does use free machining steels for their M1842 barrels, but why take the chance.
2. Then I would order a repro "Fremont Model M1842" rifled, American made barrel from either Danny Whitaker of Bobby Hoyt. Both gentlemen produce barrels that are made of top grade, modern steels and both makers have a reputation for producing barrels that are highly accurate.
By the way, the "Fremont Model" uses a shorter barrel than the regular M1842, consequently the barrel wall thickess is much greater near the muzzle. This would produce an arm that is much shorter and much more handier than a regular, full length M1842 rifled musket.
If you are wondering what a "Fremont Model," is; it is a shorter M1842 that utilizes a rifle length barrel. These arms were made up on special order at Springfield Armory for the "Pathfinder of the West," Captain (later General) John C. Fremont for issue to his unit for their explorations of the Far West.
Of course, the repro M1842 stock would have to be cut back for the shorter barrel and I would also recommend a FULL LENGTH GLASS BEDDING JOB for the stock for the following reasons: (1) IF you want the best accuracy. & (2) Some Italian made stocks are inletted with too much "room" in the breech area. I don't know if that is the case with the repro M1842's, but what I am saying is that a good glass bedding job might also help from keeping the stock from splitting from heavy recoil.
LAST, but not LEAST. Minie BAlls, because of their hollow skirts can rapidly reach a point of rapidly diminishing returns in the accuracy departmen with overly heavy charges of powder. WHY? because the skirt of a Minie is soft lead (or should be) and a heavy charge might actually deform the skirt to the point where accuracy is very poor.
What would be fun and probably very productive would be to follow all the recommendations I have made above, then shooting off of a bench rest, find what particular load, i.e., powder charge and projectile; that actually produces the BEST ACCURACY with the largest powder charge. MY GUESS is that it would be somewhere in the range of 60-75 grains of FFg (not FFFg) black powder.
I have no doubt that an accurate, .69 Minie with a powder charge in the range I mentioned above and fired from within 100 yards would kill an elk IF the shot was placed in a vital spot. No, I am not an elk hunter but a .69 Minie travelling at a moderate velocity certainly has a lot of "knock down" power!
GOOD LUCK
Here are some afterthoughts to my above post:
Another reason I would avoid firing heavy charges in a repro, rifled M1842 is because over the years, I have "cut down" several 39 inch long, .58 rifle-musket barrels to either a 33 inch "rifle" barrel or even shorter.
The "cut down" job is fairly simple-cut the barrel off and then recrown the muzzle. ON several occasions, when cutting a 39 inch barrel back to a 33 inch length I HAVE DISCOVERED that the barrel wall is "paper thin" i.e., the bore is very much "off center" and this paper thin section is usually on the underside of the barrel!
This phenonomen is NOT LIMITED to just Italian barrels, but I have found it to be true on one barrel that was considered (in the 1960's) to be a "premium" American made barrel-a .58 Weisz barrel!
Why does this occur? My theory is that when the outside "contour" of drilled and reamed barrel blank or rifled barrel blank is being turned on a lathe, the barrel will "flex" a bit past midway down due to the pressure exerted in its mid-section by the lathe's tool bit.
I will say that I have yet to "cut down" a .58 Armi-Sport (the same company that makes the repro M1842's) and find an "off center" bore. But I have only cut two of those barrels down.
My point is that the possibility of an "off center" bore in a full length repro M1842 barrel is there and argues against using heavy charges in such an arm. That is another reason that argues for using an American made, "Fremont Model" rifled barrel.
Another advantage of using a shorter barrel is that there will be enough "meat" near the muzzle so you can grind down the front sight barleycorn on the top of the front dual barrel band and have a gunsmith cut a shallow dovetain so you can install a dovetailed front sight. I would use a dovetailed front sight that had an initially "high" blade. That way you could file down the front sight so it would throw the Minie from the powder charge you find best "dead on" at 100 yards. Of course, a dovetailed front sight also allow you to tap it to the right or left to take care of any windage problems you might have.
When I purchased my repro M1842 smoothbore several years ago, not only did I glass bed it, but disassembled the lock, polished the inside of the lock plate to a "mirror bright" surface using progressively finer grades of Emery Paper purchased from the local hardware store. I finished up using a 600 grit paper that literally allowed me to see my face in it!
I instlled a lighter sear spring, greased the lock with a high quality grease and was pleased to discover that my trigger pull had dropped from 8+ pounds to 3.5 pound. In addition, My "lock time" was reduced.
Both of these things-lighter trigger pull and reduced lock time will enhance the accuracy of your arm.
I would suggest that you also remove the nipple that comes from the factory and replace it with an Aampco nipple sold by Dixie Gun Works. Aampco nipples re made from beryllium and consequently much better than ordinary steel nipples. Another advantage of an Aampco nipple is that the flash hole at the bottom of the nipple is about the size of a sewing pin-which means that when the gun is fired with a heavy charge, there will be less high pressure gas coming back at you through the flash channel of th nipple. I have actually shot repro .58 caliber rifles that had flash channels so eroded, the gas pressure not only caused the spent cap to fly off but also "re-cocked" the hammer to "half-cock." I have never had a similar incident with an Aampco nipple.
HUNTING:
I do my share of deer hunting here in the South with my favorite .58 caliber rifle. here are some hints I have found useful:
1. I prefer (in .58 caliber rifles) FFFg black powder to Pyrodex (or one of the other "replica" black powders.) WHY? BEcause black powder has a lower ignition point. I am aware of several cases where hunters using replica black powders have spooked their game because the gun went "snap" rather than "KA-BOOM" because only the cap fired, but not the main powder charge. Taking a trophy animal is much preferable, in my book, than "spooking" the same animal with a mis-fire!
2. Another way I guarantee that my .58 Richmond Rifle will go "KA-BOOM" when I aim at a deer rather than "snap." is that I use the following procedure before I actually take to the field: (A) Using a cleaning rod and dry cloth patches, I will run several thru the bore to dry ALL THE OIL POSSIBLE out of the bore. Then I will snap 5 o6 six Musket caps to (hopefully) complete the "drying" of ALL the oil in the bore. (B) Then I will fire a "blanK" charge of powder, of course with the muzzle pointed upwards. The reason I do this is that IF there is any oil in the bore, if the powder charge is wetted and killed by it, all I have to do in turn the muzzle down, shake the rifle and most of the unburned powder will fall out. This is a lot easier than pulling a pullet from a dud charge.
(C) If the blank charge dosent fire, then I will wait a couple of minutes and run some more dry patches thru the bore to dry it and remove the oily powder that didn't fire. (D) IF the blank charge does fire, then I wait a minute or so and fire TWO "LIVE" rounds. This assures me that my bore is ABSOUTELY DRY. (E) After the blank and two live rounds are fired, then using a 20 Gauge shotgun bristle brush on the end of the cleaning rod, I will "brush" out the bore. Now I have a muzzleloader that I am ABSOUTELY sure will fire when I have a deer in my sights.
SINCE YOU ARE A M/L HUNTER, YOU PROBABLY KNOW THIS ALEREADY:
BAck in the 1980's a buddy of mine was stalking what he told me was the largest trophy buck he had evr seen. He was using a repro .577 Parker-Hale Navy Rifle. He had the rifle loaded and on "Half-Cock" as he was creeping thru some heavy brush to get into position for a shot.
Unknown to him, a vine or something snagged his hammer and pulled the hammer far enough back so that when it let go, the gun went "Ker-BOOM!"
That unexpected shot SPOOKED him much worse than it did the trophy deer. Fortunately, the muzzle was pointed in a safe direction. So, beware of vines or limbs entangling your hammer during the stalk when your full attention is directed on your (hopefully) soon to be trophy.
One other thought. Another possibility is consider purchasing one of the better quality, two band repros of either the Whitworth or Kerr Rifles as sold by Dixie Gun Works and Navy arms.
These repros are high quality copies of some extremely accurate 19th Century military or military style rifles. They have a lot of "bells and whistles" that the old .69 caliber M1842's lack, i.e., target sights, better locks, checkered stocks, etc. Also, either a Whitworth or Kerr would end up costing you about the same as a custom assembled repro M1842 Fremont Rifle.
About the only "down" side is that both of these rifles come in .45 caliber-however, they probably can handle some fairly heavy powder charges for their caliber. While ALL muzzleloaders have "Rainbow" like trajectories-at least the .45 cals shoot a bit "flatter." and could probably do a job on an elk. Also, as the Whitworth used mechanically fitting hexagonal bullets, those bullets can be "hardened" so higher velocities can be achieved.
Anwyay-let us know on what you decide!
GOOD LUCK
Southron: Sir, you are gentlemen for posting two such exhaustive replies.
Your points are all very well taken, especially regarding the safety issues that may be present in some repro barrels. Ditto the advice on lock polishing and stock bedding. I was actually thinking of trying to duplicate the Fremont-style gun, as Fremont's party passed within a few dozen miles of where I can hunt elk this fall on the east side of the Cascade Mountains here in Oregon. I have owned and shot two Whitworths, and appreciate the nipple pressure issues. This class of rifles would make fine and accurate elk guns, but Oregon requires a minimum of .50 caliber for elk, so they are out.
My hope is that if I go the Model 1842 route, I can come up with a good, accurate load with the awesome Lyman .69 minie (might have to turn down the skirt plug to stiffen the skirt), and this may indeed require a Hoyt or Whitacre barrel. If I can keep three inside a five-inch circle at 100 yards, I will be thrilled.
Thank you again for your very fine advice.
Bill
Out of curiousity which bullet are you using for the .72 Kodiak? I have one that I would like to find a heavy conical mould for.
Back in the 1970's and 80's a very popular event at skirmishing was breaking the board. At fifty, and sometimes 100 yards, a piece of wood or press board was suspented with a black line through the middle. At the signal the teams tried to break the board by going at that line. The rifled 69 was a great help in getting it done, good accuracy and good cutting power. Frustrating event, seldom used today.
Check with Lodgewood Monday, they have a Fremont made by Steve Doyle, with a Hoyt barrel as I recall.
S.Sullivan
Randall: I no longer have the Kodiak .72, but the conical was the NEI No. 399, .732 and 835 grains. You can find it here:
http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html
Mr. Sullivan: Thanks for the tip.
"Back in the 1970's and 80's a very popular event at skirmishing was breaking the board. At fifty, and sometimes 100 yards, a piece of wood or press board was suspented with a black line through the middle. At the signal the teams tried to break the board by going at that line. The rifled 69 was a great help in getting it done, good accuracy and good cutting power. Frustrating event, seldom used today."
I miss the stake event myself. Does that make me an oldtimer,....or just nuts? Green
Gil Davis Tercenio
# 3020V
34th Battalion, Virginia Cavalry
Great, great grandson of Cpl Elijah S Davis, Co I, 6th Alabama Inf CSA
I don't beleive it ages you, or qualifies you for an extended visit in an asylum. It does show that you haven't attended any of the regional skirmishes at Ft. Shenandoah this year.Plenty of stake events this season so far. Come on up and enjoy the fun. There'll probably be more stakes to cut at some of the other shoots. :wink:
"if at first you don't succeed...keep on succing 'til you do succeed" - Moe Howard
Thing about dementia and Alzheimer's, old age is not always the culprit?"Back in the 1970's and 80's a very popular event at skirmishing was breaking the board. At fifty, and sometimes 100 yards, a piece of wood or press board was suspented with a black line through the middle. At the signal the teams tried to break the board by going at that line. The rifled 69 was a great help in getting it done, good accuracy and good cutting power. Frustrating event, seldom used today."
I miss the stake event myself. Does that make me an oldtimer,....or just nuts?
Richard McAuley
#3014V
First Cousin (7 times removed) to Brigadier General Stand Watie (1806-1871), CSA
1st Cherokee Mounted Rifles | Principal Chief of the Cherokee Nation 1862-66
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