Trouble with length of live paper cartridges

[TexReb]

Howdy all. I was a reenactor of the 1980s "killed" at the 125th Gettysburg. (Thereby lies a tale.) I have also been an avid muzzle loading shooter from my earliest days. But. I fell away from muzzleloading shooting for some years now, only having shot it a few times in the last 20 or so years.

I have always preferred loading with paper cartridges as it should be done and have recenty set out loading my own. I had never thought about loading to fill a cartridge box so never gave any thought to the length of my lads. Well, I just discovered my loads don't fit. In fact, some of my loads were approaching English standard at nearly 3." That just wouldn't do!

I have concentrated on reducing the size and an average length of 2-1/2" with a least length of 2-3/8" the best I have managed. I have been rolling 3 paper and 2 paper cartridges with US standard cartridge ball nose forward and English/Confederate standard cartridge ball nose in and so far, the shortest have been ball nose in.

One thing I have noticed adds some length are my Minie balls; 3 ring Minie's. They were cast (by a friend), I don't know his mold but the balls are .575 and 1.070 long. I notice on original documents a bullet length of .960 is given. Now that does impose a nearly 1/8" difference. Maybe that's the problem? I'm loading a powder charge of 65 grains 2f/ffg black powder. I never got into that substitute stuff. Maybe reducing the load to 60 grains?

Below is an image of what I have been doing and the two types of cartridges I've made. (For the record I am loading the cartridges with lubed bullets. That one was just for display.)

Finally, If interested, my rifle is a 1st generation Parker-Hale 1853 Enfield partially defarbed. (Actually, by the standard of the day it was done excellently so.)

What all this is leading up to is, how long were official US & CSA cartridges and any clues as to how I can best get there? If anybody knows about roll your own live rounds these days, it'd be you all.
Thanks in advance.

[ms3635v]

TexReb. I have included photos of three original cartridges. Two are loaded with minie balls and one is a buck and ball cartridge. Hope this is helpful.

[Maillemaker]

Hi TexReb:

I recently started making my own authentic style .58 cartridges also, though not the Enfield style.

I know the Confederacy switched to Enfield-style cartridges after around 1864. They made a shorter style, however, to enable them to fit in our cartridge boxes. Many imported English Enfield-style cartridges were broken down for the ball and powder and re-rolled as shorter cartridges.

Here is an excellent article:

http://www.cartridgetubes.com/Authentic_Cartridges.html

Here you can see pictures of my cartridges:
http://imgur.com/a/n1hJ7#0
http://i.imgur.com/eUSlK.jpg
http://imgur.com/a/xvibh

I am making them per both the 1855 Ordnance Manual instructions and the 1862 Ordnance Manual instructions.

My ball is 1.016" long and is made using the RCBS 500M mold.

I have had no problem getting my original-style cartridges packaged into arsenal packs of 10 cartridges + a tube of 12 percussion caps fitting in the compartments of my tins in my .58 cal. cartridge box. They fit nicely, if a little snug.

The 1855-style cartridge with its inner powder case gives you a good idea of the correct length of the cartridge because the inner case - not the powder charge - dictates the overall length of the paper part of the cartridge (not the bullet, obviously). Not coincidentally, the powder case is just the right length for 60 grains of powder - the amount that was intended to be charged.

My 1855-style cartridges come out to about 2.2" long, and this is using the 1.016" long bullet mentioned above. 1862-style cartridges come out to about the same length - if you load them with 60 grains of powder. In N-SSA shooting, virtually no one does this as it does not produce the most accurate groupings. At 44-48 grains, you end up with a considerably shorter cartridge.

I emailed John Robey of the Rules Committee twice about using .58 Minnie cartridges in N-SSA shooting but he never replied. I've been meaning to call but I keep forgetting.

Of course Enfield-style cartridges, which are essentially paper-patched bullets meant to be fired with the paper cartridge still around the ball, are not allowed in N-SSA competition.

Steve

[Maillemaker]

For .58 Cal. Expanding Ball cartridges, (and other styles), see page 248 of the 1850 Ordnance Manual, which shows the lengths of cartridges of varying styles. Likewise the dimensions of cartridge bundles (which gives the length of cartridges) is given on page 270 of the 1862 Ordnance Manual.

Also on page 230 of the 1862 Ordnance Manual you can see the dimensions for the compartments of the tin inserts in the .58 and .69 cartridge boxes. From this, we can see that the compartment is 2.3" high, so .58 cartridges cannot exceed this length. Of course in practice they are actually somewhat smaller because in addition to the cartridges a tube of caps was packed at one end of the bundle.

Interestingly, though, the bundle length on page 270 of the 1862 manual gives a bundle length of 2.6 inches, which would seem to be longer than the compartment length given.

Anyway, my 2.2" long cartridges, with 60 grains of powder and a 1.016" long bullet, make a bundle of 10, with a tube of caps, that fits in my reproduction tin.

1850 Ordnance Manual
1862 Ordnance Manual

Steve

[TexReb]

Thanks for replys. I have found those manuals supplied and looked at Gilham's too so know what the specs say. My problem seems to fall with my making.

By your comments I think my problem lies with the length of the ball and my powder charge. I picked on 65 grains because I seem to recall getting the best results with that loading. Then again, that may have had to do with the bullets I was using back in the day. They were swaged hollow point bullets made by buffalo IIRC.

Also, my tins bottoms measure 2-5/16" and 2-3/8 respectively though they run 2-1/2"+ in the top. My tins are also made of galvanized which they shouldn't be but that is of no matter to me since I am no longer involved in any organization or competition but just want to use it for myself.

That being the case, I believe I shall simply make myself some new tins with more space in the bottom, I have the room in my box, and experiment with my loads. If less powder will do, I'll reduce the charges.

One more question. In my older box, IIRC, the tin tops were open in the top. These tins, and some pictures I have seen of others, show a little cross piece in the top to one side more or less. That would necessitate peeling the cartridges out of the packet and putting them one by one in the top instead of simply tearing open the pack, pulling out the caps and stuffing the whole into the tins tops.

Gotta admit, though clumsy in ranks, I like the English 50 round box a lot better for practical use. It had to be a pain in action pulling out the tins and trying to dig out a packet stuffed tightly in there. of course I realize that was last resort the soldiers having stuffed haversacks and pockets with cartridges before going in if they at all could have.

Thanks all. Here's a shot of my most recent batch. I'll have to knock together a packet making frame now.

Actually, all this may prove a real challenge to my false teeth! I haven't tried one of these since I got them!
Thanks all!

[John Holland]

I've seen the divider in original tins, anybody know exactly why it is there? It always looked like it would be in the way.

Oh, yes, I've also seen original tins where the divider has been removed. Perhaps it was only removed when the tins were modified to accept the wood block insert for the Allin conversion cartridges. I've seen those tins, too.

Anyway, why is the divider there?

JDH

[Maillemaker]

Here is the size of the .58 expanding ball in 1855, from Round Ball to Rimfire Volume 1.

It is 1.05" in length.

http://i.imgur.com/gTsL7.jpg

Steve

[Eggman]

Well I know as a plastic cartridge guy I have no business posting here but I would just like to add that if you walk down East Baltimore Street with these in your pocket and the cops stop you they will think they are joints and will throw you in the slammer.
Had a talk with an English "Bobbie" friend this week and really confused him when I told him that when I found a rattle snake in my yard a few weeks ago I ran into the house, grabbed my shotgun, and then ran out and shot the poor scaley fellow with it -- twice. He was appalled ---"You keep your gun and your ammunition in the same place??" He was also mystified as to how I could unbolt the gun from the wall that fast.

[John Holland]

And that's why we are Americans, and not Subjects!

JDH

[Maillemaker]

Well I know as a plastic cartridge guy I have no business posting here but I would just like to add that if you walk down East Baltimore Street with these in your pocket and the cops stop you they will think they are joints and will throw you in the slammer.

LOL, when I posted them on facebook my friends commented that they must be "exploding tampons"!

Steve