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Thread: The "Hay Pattern" Enfield Rifle, i.e., the "Medium Enfield"

  1. #1
    Southron Sr. is offline
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    The "Hay Pattern" Enfield Rifle, i.e., the "Medium Enfield"

    I hadn't ever heard of this one before, but according to the author of an article on the "Hay Pattern" Enfield, they were used by both sides during "The Late Unpleasantness Between the States."

    The arm was developed by a Colonel Hay of the British Army. It was a "3 Bander" but utilized a barrel only 36" long instead of the regular 39" barrel found on the regular P-53.

    Apparently, it was never adopted an an "official" pattern by the British Ordnance Department although in 1864 the government of New Zealand ordered something like 5,000 Hay Pattern Enfields from the "trade" in England.

    The rear sight was set forward just behind the rear barrel band-just like those found on the Enfield Naval Rifles.

    The "Hay Pattern" used a three groove, progressive depth rifling with a 1 in 48" Twist. Supposedly, it was much more accurate than the regular P-53 with their 1 in 78" Twist.

    Anyone know of any original Confederate or Yankee "Hay Pattern" Enfields in private or public arms collections? Any documentation of their use by either the U.S. or C.S. Armies?

    For more information about the "Hay Pattern" Enfield:

    Google:

    "Hay 1858 Pattern Enfield Rifle" article written by John Osborne

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    I know three British shooters who have Hay Pattern Rifles and shoot them with good results in MLAGB competitions. (Iam in touch with John Osborne).

    David
    David Minshall - www.researchpress.co.uk - www.facebook.com/ResearchPress
    Firearms, long range target shooting and associated history

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    Southeron Sr.

    I had a very nice long meeting with the Director of the new Pedersoli Distribution Center here, just today.

    He suggest that most cosmetic changes to the furniture of various arms should not be any major issues.
    However, changes in barrel length, caliber and/or rifling maybe cause for getting Italian Governmental approval before anything can be produced.
    Perhaps, and this is just a suggestion on my part, it would be best to keep these new changes as simple as it may prove to be possible for Pedersoli to start off with during this time of new changes to an old product line?
    Pedersoli seems to be very interested in the chances to make changes for a better finished product at this time. Let us give them that chance.
    Blair

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    Dear Blair:

    My suggestion was Pedersoli produce the P-60 Enfield (Army) Short Rifle which is IDENTICAL to the P-58 Naval Rifle with the exception of:

    1. The nose cap is color casehardened steel rather than brass.

    2. The trigger plate/guard is of color casehardened steel rather than brass-although the trigger plate is a tad longer and the rear sling swivel is attached to the rear of the trigger plate further rather than to the trigger guard.

    3. The buttplate is color casehardened steel rather than brass.

    From a historical standpoint, the P-60 Army Short Rifles were much more common in both the Union and Confederate armies than the P-58 Naval Rifles.

    The P-60 Army Short Rifles was the "issue weapon" for the vast majority of the troops in the Army on Northern Virginia's "Sharpshoter Battalions," (also called "The Shock Troops of the Confederacy") because of a shortage of Whitworth and Kerr Sniper Rifles.

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    Blair is offline
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    Southeron Sr,

    Yes, I know what the differences are in the various patterns.
    Was this topic not started based off of the "Hay Pattern" P-1853 medium length Rifle Musket's?
    Please let me know how the P-1860 Infantry Rifle relates to the "Hay Pattern Medium length Rifle Musket" discussion in this thread?
    Blair

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    Hay Pattern Enfields

    My understanding is that Colonel Hay also designed the P-58 Naval Rifle. So, that explains why the Hay Pattern Enfield has the rear sight positioned where it is on the barrel-in the same place as those on the P-58 Naval Rifles. Of course, the P-60 Short Rifle was just a slightly modified Naval Rifle.

    According to Dr. John Osborne who has researched the Hay Pattern Enfields, both the Union and Confederacy purchased Hay Pattern Enfields. Hopefully, I can get in touch with Dr. Osborne and find out what his documentation indicating U.S. or C.S purchase of Hay Pattern Enfields. Needless to say, adequate documentation would be required before the N-SSA SAC would approve the use of Hay Pattern Enfields at Skirmishes.

    I really don't think any manufacturer would be interested in producing a replica Hay Pattern Enfield, but it would be an interesting project to build a custom one.

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    "Hay Pattern" Enfield Rifle

    Though in responding here earlier, I had wondered whether the "Hay Pattern" Enfield could have influenced the design of the .568-caliber experimental Whitworth that was manufactured by Manchester Ordnance in 1863, as it too had a shorter 36-inch barrel length like the "Hay Pattern", that does not appear to be the case nooting the New Zealand government did not place the first order for 500 Hay Enfields with Hollis & Sons until 1864, followed by a second order for 500 via Calisher & Terry in 1865.
    Last edited by R. McAuley 3014V; 01-21-2013 at 09:58 PM.
    First Cousin (7 times removed) to Brigadier General Stand Watie (1806-1871), CSA
    1st Cherokee Mounted Rifles | Principal Chief of the Cherokee Nation 1862-66

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    Pattern 1860 or Pattern 1856?

    Quote Originally Posted by Southron Sr. View Post
    Dear Blair:

    My suggestion was Pedersoli produce the P-60 Enfield (Army) Short Rifle which is IDENTICAL to the P-58 Naval Rifle with the exception of:

    1. The nose cap is color casehardened steel rather than brass.

    2. The trigger plate/guard is of color casehardened steel rather than brass-although the trigger plate is a tad longer and the rear sling swivel is attached to the rear of the trigger plate further rather than to the trigger guard.

    3. The buttplate is color casehardened steel rather than brass.

    From a historical standpoint, the P-60 Army Short Rifles were much more common in both the Union and Confederate armies than the P-58 Naval Rifles.

    The P-60 Army Short Rifles was the "issue weapon" for the vast majority of the troops in the Army on Northern Virginia's "Sharpshoter Battalions," (also called "The Shock Troops of the Confederacy") because of a shortage of Whitworth and Kerr Sniper Rifles.

    Are you certain that it was the Pattern 1860 Army Rifle (5-groove, 1:48 spiral, 1250 yard sights) or the Pattern 1856 Army Rifle (3-groove, 1:78 spiral, 1100 yard sights), as the Pattern 1860 was one of the shortest lived rifles, only adopted in November 1860 and afterwards replaced in August 1861 with the Pattern 1861 Army Rifle with which it is most often confused, and for which production at RSAF did not commence until 1861-62 with only 4,220 rifles produced that first year. The only difference between them is that the front sight base is made of steel on the Pattern 1861, and iron on the Pattern 1860. The 1250 yard sight was adopted in 1861 when the British War Department changed to the new J2 powder. Only about 18,000 of both patterns were made, 1861-64 at the RSAF, and the majority of Pattern 1860 Army Rifles were held in government store until converted to Snider in 1866-67, hence why so few survived, and most of those were made under contract by the Liege trade for the British government (part of the 1859 contract with final delivery by February 1863), some examples are dated as late as 1870. One of the distinguishing traits of the Pattern 1856 is its longer sword bar (on barrel) that will accept the Lancaster bayonet but will not accept the standard Pattern 1858 Navy Rifle or Pattern 1860/61 Army Rifle bayonet. The Army rifles were all iron-mounted.
    Last edited by R. McAuley 3014V; 12-18-2012 at 07:51 AM. Reason: correct dates of adoption, production
    First Cousin (7 times removed) to Brigadier General Stand Watie (1806-1871), CSA
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  9. #9
    Southron Sr. is offline
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    Hay Pattern Enfield & P-60

    Dear Richard:

    I feel that there is a connection between the Hay Pattern Enfield and the large bore Whitworth. Colonel Hay, Commandant of the Musketry School at Hythe was very well known for his experimental work regarding the P-53 Enfield. Some research needs to be done on the matter.

    If I were in England I would look for Colonel Hay's Official Letter Books, 1857-1865. They should be in a military archive somewhere.
    Then I would look for correspondence between Colonel Hay and Sir Joseph Whitworth. Those should be some interesting letters to read!

    As for the P-60 vs P-61. I agree that that today that original P-60's are rare critters as most made at Enfield were converted to Sniders.

    I was referring to the "contractor made" P-60's that were sold by contractors to Confederate purchasing agents.

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    Pattern 1860 rifles sold to Confederate agents?

    Quote Originally Posted by Southron Sr. View Post
    Dear Richard:

    As for the P-60 vs P-61. I agree that that today that original P-60's are rare critters as most made at Enfield were converted to Sniders.

    I was referring to the "contractor made" P-60's that were sold by contractors to Confederate purchasing agents.
    Trouble is, is that while Huse refers to some of his purchases by pattern or description (i.e. P51, P53, Brunswick, smoothbore, second-hand government, etc), he offers little distinction between patterns when it comes to his "short rifles”. Only in the invoices from William Grazebrook of Liverpool to Caleb Huse (in the McRae Papers) are we afforded any such distinctions in descriptions as either “iron mounted” or “brass mounted” short rifles that infer these to have been Pattern 1856 “iron mounted” Army rifles or the Pattern 1856 (Type 2) or Pattern 1858 “bar-on-band” Army rifles, or the Pattern 1858 ‘brass mounted” Navy rifles. Although these “short rifles” may not be specified by any specific pattern, to suggest that the "iron-mounted" referred only to those Model 1860 Army Rifles made by private makers is to further assume that some private makers produced such rifles in advance of the same pattern produced by the government in the case of the Pattern 1860 which did not commence until 1861, the very same year as these “iron-mounted” short rifles were sold to Huse.

    The likelihood that the gun trade (whether in England or Liege) would have begun production of the P/60 rifle ahead of the government’s effort seems too ludicrous a gamble, especially in the light of the government’s late decision to adopt the 5-groove rifling over the previous Army rifle’s 3-groove. I must say that I just have not seen much evidence to show that sufficient quantities of P/60 rifles were actually produced by any private contractors ahead of those produced by the government, though I have owned one Liege example dated 1860, but I also have owned another Liege-made P/60 dated 1869. So too, America was not the only country to which these guns were exported. Indeed, the total quantities of all types of arms produced both in England and Belgium during the years 1861-65 greatly exceed the quantities exported to America during the same period.

    Finally, though William Grazebrook also sold ‘artillery carbines’ to Huse in September 1861, I have not heard of anyone suggesting these were of the new Pattern 1861 (adopted 30 December 1861) like reproduced by Parker-Hale and Euroarms. More likely, these were either of the Pattern 1853 or 58, if not still earlier Pattern 1841 or 42 artillery carbines?
    First Cousin (7 times removed) to Brigadier General Stand Watie (1806-1871), CSA
    1st Cherokee Mounted Rifles | Principal Chief of the Cherokee Nation 1862-66

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