What do you think of my sight-in attempt today?

[Maillemaker]

OK all,

I took my Euroarms P1853 to the range this weekend. I still had 10 cartridges left over that our unit commander had made up for me for my first skirmish two weekends ago. I dumped a few of them on my scale and determined they were carrying about 48.4 grains of powder per my digital scale. So I made up another batch of 50 cartridges loaded with the same 48.4 grains, and using my same Lee Traditional Minnies that I shot at the skirmish. As at the skirmish, I packed the bullet base cavities with lube. Basically I was trying to duplicate what I was shooting last weekend that got me 3rd place in the Musket competition. The groups seemed pretty good at the skirmish, especially the 100 yard target where I put 4 rounds (I dropped the powder for #5 on the ground and had no more in my cartridge box) in the 8" circle.

We knew from shooting it last weekend that it shot to the left. On the 50 yard target aiming at the bullseye resulted in hits on the outer ring (5 ring). So all weekend at the skirmish I compensated by aiming about 8" to the right.

You can see the pictures of my efforts today here:

http://www.forth-armoury.com/temp/1853/ ... ite-in.htm

Despite our unit commander's warning not to modify the site without running through different powder charges, I went ahead and did a little filing since it seemed obvious that the weapon is still firing consistently to the left. I expect tweaking the powder charge to alter the group size, but I would not expect it to alter point of aim. I could be wrong - won't be the first time I've been burned ignoring sage advice. I'm just eager to get this thing hitting where I'm pointing it!

I am disappointed with size of the groups. At 100 yards I'm getting about an 8"-10" group size. At 50 yards it's 6"-8".

Now one thing I noticed was that the barrel was quite hot. Nearly too hot to touch. The 100 yard range where I shoot is uncovered, so my musket was in the sun the entire time. I suspect the reason why our unit commander's bullets in the cartridges he had prepared for me started flying funny at the skirmish after 3 good shots was because the barrel warmed up enough to increase the clearance and cause key-holing. After this we switched to the minnies I had cast and brought, and it solved the key-holing problem. However, today, in spite of the hot barrel, I had no keyholes in the target or backstop (and every shot printed on the target and/or backstop). So my musket is making good holes with these Lee Traditional Minnies.

I was shooting off of a bench. The first 10 shots I shot with my elbows on the bench, but the last 40 shots I set the stock foregrip (where my hand would normally go) on a cardboard box. I made very careful, slow, squeezed shots with what I considered to be excellent sight pictures when it went off.

So what do you all think? I'm not familiar with black powder weapons so I don't know what kinds of groups to expect. I had expected tighter groups. Are these normal or should I be expecting tighter groups? I saw tighter groups at the skirmish but I only put about 15 shots on paper at the skirmish - the rest went at clay pigeons or hanging targets so I'm not sure how the grouping went with those. On the clay pigeons I did pretty good (5 hits out of 7 shots) as I aimed one row over to the right to hit the one on the left. On the hanging targets I have no idea, of course. I only hit one or two of those - it was harder with nothing to reference to the right of the intended target.

Steve

[mikea]

Steve-
Just about all of us replace the front sight in these guns with a tall one in a dovetail. You can then cut the sight down to the right height for elevation and drift it left or right to correct for windage. A very helpful formula for determining how much sight movement is needed is: Distance to move sight = (Sight radius x distance on target) / distance to target.
All of this is in inches, and the sight radius is the distance between the front and rear sights (the back of them - what your eye sees). An example: Suppose that the sight radius is 32 inches and
you want to move the point of impact 6 inches at 100 yards (left or right, up or down) then, 32 x 6 / 100 x 36 = 192/3600 = 0.053. So, a movement of 53 thousands will move the shot group 6 inches at 100 yards. It helps to have micrometer calipers for this, the type that are used in cartridge reloading. Also, the rule on direction to move the sights is "FORS", Front Opposite, Rear Same as the direction you want to move the point of impact. So, to move the point of impact to the right, move the front sight to the left.
I have had Dan Whitacre install a dovetailed front sight for me on an Enfield during the last Nationals at Winchester and am very happy with his work. Since you have a P1853, a trick I would recommend that I use for elevation adjustment is to get a cheap set of mechanics feeler guages and have them cut to length to fit under the rear sight ladder. I got a set from Harbor Freight for a few $ and had a machinist friend cut them. These shims can be selected to give very precise elevation adjustment. I use 2 stacks held together with tape, one for 50 yds. and another for 100 yds.
As far as group size, the N-SSA targets 10 Rings are 2" for 50 yds. and 4" for 100 yds. If you get groups shot from the bench that size I wouldn't complain too much, but it is possible to do better.
The basics of ammo for these guns is:
1) Determine the ACTUAL land to land dimension in your gun. Italian repro's vary - measure it - don't go by catalog spec's.
2) Get a sizing die 1 to 3 thousands less than that for sizing the bullets (most of us probably size .002" less).
3) Be sure to use only bullets from PURE LEAD (NOT lead with tin or antimony in it).
4) Try various bullets with various powder charges to see what groups best. (I think most of us have found that + or - half of a grain of powder doesn't make any difference, and most use 3F with a minority using 2F. I believe most are using between 40 to 48 gr. of 3F, with something around 43 - 45 gr. the most common).
5) Adjust the sights for the bullet / load you have selected.
Hope this helps.

[Maillemaker]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the tips. I like the idea of a dovetail for the front site.

Question on sizing the barrel: Since it is a muzzle loader, how does one determine the inside dimensions of the barrel? Slugging could be problematic. I thought of putting a stopper down the barrel on a cord, and then pouring in cerrosafe, and then pulling out the plug via the cord, but am afraid of ending up with a chunk of crap in the barrel.

I am using pure lead purchased from rotometals.

Steve

[R. McAuley 3014V]

As an alternative to physically measuring the bore, take a freshly cast minie and your musket, and turning the muzzle downward while resting its weight on a table or other support, gently insert the base of the minie into the muzzle just enough to engage the rifling. If the minie fails to touch the sides, your mold is too small and you need a larger diameter mold. If the minie is the correct size, it should just barely touch the rifling on all sides, and offer a slight resistance to being inserted farther into the bore. You do not need to insert the minie any deeper than the grooves while holding it firmly with your fingers. If while rotating the minie in the muzzle, the minie will turn freely, use a sizer equal to the mold diameter. If the minie sticks hard and fast and will not turn freely, use a sizer one or two thousandths under the mold size. In no case, whether sized or unsized, the minie should not fit so loosely that you can wiggle it. It should fit just snug or slightly loose. Once you find the best fit, select a lubricant that works best with this diameter, and for most .577 Enfields, a .576 sizer seems to provide the best fit.

[Maillemaker]

With a freshly cleaned barrel, I had one ball that dropped all the way down the barrel to the powder.

My balls are measuring .572-.577 in diameter.

Steve

[Muley Gil]

One thing you can do is to sort the Minies by diameter. Generally, the tighter the better. Most folks size the Minies to .001-.002 undersize.

Back forty years ago, I had a load for a Zoli Zouave that would shoot three shots into 1 1/4", at 50 yards, from a bench.

[Eggman]

In the for what it's worth department, I've been shooting a Euroarms three band Enfield since I started in '90 and have always gotten VERY tight groups using the Lyman .575 traditional minie and 35 grains of 3f GOEX. Off the bench they're generally touching each other at 50yds. I have a homemade front sight with a brass base and a cut up nickel for the post all silver soldered together - no dovetail..

[Southron Sr.]

Here are some more "Tips" on how to make up accurate ammo:

1. Weigh your Minie Balls. I generally cast several hundred at a time (I have a casting machine) and then using an electronic scale, I weigh every bullet. I separate my bullets by "Plus or Minus" 1 grain into different boxes that are labeled according to the weight of the bullets I place in them.

2. I throw all of my "light" Minie Balls back into the pot because they have air voids in them.

3. Then I size my Minie Balls by running them thru a press and sizing die.

When I load the cartridges, I keep my different weight Minie Balls in their same weight "lot." I also weigh my powder charges.

NEXT, GET ABOUT 5 POUNDS OF POWDER THAT IS FROM THE SAME MANUFACTURER'S "LOT"

Hint-If you buy Goex, the "Lot #" will be printed on the bottom of the can. Different "lots" of black powder from the same manufacturer can (but not always) shoot differently! So, by having five pounds of powder from the same "lot" you are ahead of the game when it comes to sighting in your rifle.

Using weighed and sized Minie Balls, load 5 rounds with 43 Grains of powder.
" " " " " " load 5 rounds with 43.5 Grains of powder.
" " " " " " load 5 rounds with 44. Grains of powder.

(So on and so forth until you hit 54 Grains of powder.)

Target and hang at 50 yards and then shoot 5 rounds from each lot off the bench.

NOTE: Don't worry where your bullets are hitting in relation to the Bullseye of the target. For we are going ONLY FOR THE SMALLEST GROUP.

What you will find is that one or two loads give you very "tight" groups off the bench.

THEN and ONLY THEN when you have found the load that produces your "tightest group," adjust your sights to throw your rounds in the "X" ring of the target!

Another hint: For best accuracy, glass bed your musket and have a "lock job" done on your lock so your trigger pull is between 3 and 3.5 pounds. N-SSA rules won't let you go below 3 pounds on a trigger pull.

Hint: A Tight Tang screw aids accuracy!

GOOD LUCK

[varsity07840]

Steve-
Just about all of us replace the front sight in these guns with a tall one in a dovetail. You can then cut the sight down to the right height for elevation and drift it left or right to correct for windage. A very helpful formula for determining how much sight movement is needed is: Distance to move sight = (Sight radius x distance on target) / distance to target.
All of this is in inches, and the sight radius is the distance between the front and rear sights (the back of them - what your eye sees). An example: Suppose that the sight radius is 32 inches and
you want to move the point of impact 6 inches at 100 yards (left or right, up or down) then, 32 x 6 / 100 x 36 = 192/3600 = 0.053. So, a movement of 53 thousands will move the shot group 6 inches at 100 yards. It helps to have micrometer calipers for this, the type that are used in cartridge reloading. Also, the rule on direction to move the sights is "FORS", Front Opposite, Rear Same as the direction you want to move the point of impact. So, to move the point of impact to the right, move the front sight to the left.
I have had Dan Whitacre install a dovetailed front sight for me on an Enfield during the last Nationals at Winchester and am very happy with his work. Since you have a P1853, a trick I would recommend that I use for elevation adjustment is to get a cheap set of mechanics feeler guages and have them cut to length to fit under the rear sight ladder. I got a set from Harbor Freight for a few $ and had a machinist friend cut them. These shims can be selected to give very precise elevation adjustment. I use 2 stacks held together with tape, one for 50 yds. and another for 100 yds.
As far as group size, the N-SSA targets 10 Rings are 2" for 50 yds. and 4" for 100 yds. If you get groups shot from the bench that size I wouldn't complain too much, but it is possible to do better.
The basics of ammo for these guns is:
1) Determine the ACTUAL land to land dimension in your gun. Italian repro's vary - measure it - don't go by catalog spec's.
2) Get a sizing die 1 to 3 thousands less than that for sizing the bullets (most of us probably size .002" less).
3) Be sure to use only bullets from PURE LEAD (NOT lead with tin or antimony in it).
4) Try various bullets with various powder charges to see what groups best. (I think most of us have found that + or - half of a grain of powder doesn't make any difference, and most use 3F with a minority using 2F. I believe most are using between 40 to 48 gr. of 3F, with something around 43 - 45 gr. the most common).
5) Adjust the sights for the bullet / load you have selected.
Hope this helps.

Is there formular regarding windage adjustment for a rear sight?

Thanks,

Duane

[ken chrestman]

Steve;

Usual action is to shoot for group (ragged hole at 50) from a rest them move the group.

Get a front/rear sight you can see.

Bed the barrel

Check the crown

Consider bore polishing

SOFT snug bullets.

Regards;

Ken Chrestman, FEC 7147V