56-56 Spencer woes

[Dave Fox]

My friend Wormey is trying to develop a half-way decent load for our Spencer 56-56 carbines. I know, I know; have them lined or rebarreled to 56-50. We don't want to do that. Here's the problem: with a variety of loads and bullets from .535 to a nominal .545, there is a consistant, discernable vertical stringing on the target. I'm talking eighteen inches or so at fifty yards. The deflection isn't too bad: maybe six or so inches, excepting the odd flier. If we could get a fifty yard group of six inches I'd declare victory. Wormey (who's retired and doesn't otherwise have a life) opines after a deal of range frustration, that the bullets seem to fit with varying degrees of looseness in the cases. He doesn't think the pull upon firing, bullet to bullet, is consistant. This theory does seem to make sense in explaining the vertical dispersion. The difficulty is: how does one get a consistant crimp or squeeze on the inconveniently heeled bullet during reloading? The bullets' wide driving band, just north of the case mouth, seems to frustrate a normal crimp. ideas, Pards?

[R. McAuley 3014V]

A “vertical” string on the target you say? My first suspicion would be to question his breath control? But presuming the carbine is bench rested, has he tried using a machine rest? I suggest this owing to the possibility that Wormey’s breathing could be what accounts for the vertical pattern, that is, if his breathing is inconsistent with where he breaks the round in relation to the bull’s-eye (i.e. 12 o’clock, 6 o’clock, etc), this could account for this inconsistency.

If the rounds are magazine-fed there may be little he can do other than use a make the crimp more severe to hold the bullet solidly in place. If loaded individually, however, he could (using a case spinner) “spin” each cartridge to determine which ones may be “out-of-center,” and mark the high point on the cartridge. Then when he loads the “out-of-center” cartridges, he will need to chamber the rounds so that the “high point” is oriented “up” or “down” to obtain any consistency. Typically, I chamber mine “up” then control their impact with my breath control as to fine tune their impact on the target (usually my sighters). My “spinner” (for .308) was made by Forster Products, but you may need a larger collet so to hold a .56/56 cartridge (i.e. 50-70) if it’s not a universal collet. If you cannot find a case “spinner” then you can use a manual case trimmer and these are made by Forster, Redding, RCBS, Lee, Lyman, etc.

As far as a “machine rest,” Wormey may have to be inventive and modify one of the commercially available shooter’s rests that will “lock” the barrel and receiver firmly in-place, and facilitates single-shot loading at least until you can find a more consistent load that works when magazine-fed. There are some cleaning benches available (like the Lyman gun vice) that secure a rifle for cleaning but just might double for a machine rest? Check with the Mid South catalogue (page 131, 192-93). Any having the ability to be locked to the table to hold the rifle/carbine in place will add greatly to the consistency and accuracy. Unless there is any adjustment in the machine rest, you may have to adjust the target's location to obtain the desired effect but you are only trying to insure a consistent point of aim and measuring any drift from that point that can be associated with a particular bullet weight, charge, or distance.

[Dave Fox]

Thanks, McAuley. Let me add that this vertical dispersion is consistent. Sandbagged, my carbine especially evidences this, no matter which of us are holding it. This is about 18" at fifty yards. As sorry a shot as I am, at 50 yards I can put 'em in one ragged hole if the weapon is doing its job. I know the 56-56 is not known for one ragged hole groups, but this does seem like it is more an ammunition problem.

[Eggman]

What does the bore look like? It sounds like a spazmo rough bore like my Spencer was until it was relined. Had to wipe after EVERY shot for any consistency. Bore looks good (???) -- then how much lube are you using? You must use a lot of soft lube for good consistency.. My Spencer with Hoyt liner loves a small charge with a big bullet completely covered with soft lube.
See above for inconsistent bullets.

[DAVE FRANCE]

I don't know if this applies to the 56-56 round, but ordinarily the case should be sized, then expanded so that there is a press fit of the bullet into the case. You might be able to use a taper crimp. A consistent pull is supposed to help accuracy. If you are not already doing these things in hand loading your ammunition, it might help.

The only time I had a rifle or carbine string vertically was with a Smith carbine. It was caused by loosening of the long butt stock bolt that held the stock to the receiver.

Hope you let us know what you find out.

Good luck!

David

[Dave Fox]

Thanks, fellas. I dunno. A friend/professional at Brownell's suggested barrel harmonics might be the culprit. He suggested wrapping some sheet lead around the barrel as a test. Lord love us.

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Dave,

I would still recommend trying the "machine rest" if only to isolate potential causes and eliminate the human factor. No matter how tight or solid your bench rest position, various factors affect the bullet's impact, whether it's breath control, sight picture, corrected vision or your heartbeat. Assmuing you can control your breath and maintain a uniform sight picture, there is no way to control your heartbeat. Anyone who has ever shot a highpower rifle in prone position at either 600 or 1,000 yards knows that when you inhale the front sight goes down, and when you exhale the front sight goes up, and most long range shooters rely on "rhythm breathing" for breath control.

After cranking in your zero and correcting for wind values, as you perfect your sight picture you continue to breathe normally, in and out, in and out, etc., and as you ease up your breathing (all the while maintaining a perfect sight picture), as your breath becomes less and less, it is when you stop breathing that you break the round. These two actions minimize their effect on the round as it leaves the muzzle, such that if you have made a correct judgement of the wind speed and direction, you base any corrections for your next shot on the target mark of the previous shot. I have shot in long range matches when I have shot all 20 rounds inside of eight minutes and when the wind changed direction 10 times while I was shooting, and I merely chased from one side of the 10-ring to the other to maintain a score of 98 or 99 at 600 yards. Of course, that was a M-14 rifle not a Spencer carbine but the process is much the same.

My prone position at 600 and 1,000 yards was what was termed a "low" prone position. I was so contorted behind the weapon and so close to the ground, I literally dug a little hole just to accommodate my magazine protruding out from the underside of the weapon. My left hand was generally aching from a lack of circulation, if it had any feeling at all. And while I would concentrate on maintaining my "rhythm" breathing between shots, I could do nothing to stop my heartbeat which could be seen in the up and down movement of the front sight blade. I believe to this day that if I could have stopped my heart, I could have shot a "clean" at 600 yards, but the highest 10-shot string I could ever reach was a 99-6x. The rifle I was shooting was a custom-made M1A by Glenn Nelson (built out of an M-14 parts kit) on a Springfield Armory receiver, with 1:10 twist heavy barrel with a .3079 bore and Glenn's heavy stock. The rifle weighed 12 pounds and had been tunnel tested in a machine-rest at 200 yards, and came with a target showing a 14 round group of 168-gr Sierras the size of a nickel. I couldn't hold it that tight but it was nice to know the capabilities of the rifle, even if the shooter's abilities were far less.

That's why I suggest trying the "machine rest" because if you get consistent results out of the rifle under such "fixed" conditions, all these other departures in accuracy or consistency are mostly human error.

[DAVE FRANCE]

I agree with you about a machine rest. I spent a lot of time shooting from a rest in the last two years. I bought an adjustable rest, but a machine rest would have saved a lot of time.

I never have been able to shoot well off a rest, but I got better over the last two years.

I went to a beginners training thing about shooting high power rifles. I decided I didn't want to shoot lying on the ground in the sun. The three rifle ranges I have been to in Texas are set up so you can shoot under cover except for highpower.

David

[Southron Sr.]

Tony Beck, our Spencer Guru sends the following:



I doubt that the problem is barrel harmonics. Spencer barrels are stout and the loads are light.

Check that the magazine tube nut under the buttplate is tight. If this doesn’t clamp to the buttstock, make some shims from 1/32” birch plywood (available at hobby shops) and get it tight. Check that the trigger plate is tight too.

Lighten up the trigger! Spencer (and Sharps) sear springs are killer stiff. Pick up a spare mainspring and thin the sear leg until the trigger is down to less than 5 pounds.

The CH-4D 56-56 die will crimp enough for consistent accuracy when shooting 0.537” bullets. Might not work so well for larger than that.

If you are shooting the Rapine bullet, switch to the Owziak 56-56 Spencer bullet. It holds a lot more lube. Cast from soft lead (50/50 wheelweight-pure, or 33% WW, 67% pure). Dig a few fired bullets out of the backstop. They should expand enough on firing that they don’t show the seating heel.

Use a pasteboard card wad between the bullet and powder. These can be cut from desk calendar backers using a 1/2” gasket punch. If you enlarge the bore of the gasket punch to about 0.515” it will work even better.

Use FF or CTG powder. FFF doesn’t work as well.

Go over to the CAS Spencer Shooters Society pages. There is a lot of good information on shooting 56-56 there.

That should get you going.

[Dave Fox]

Wormey is on comrade Beck's suggestions! We've already gotten an Owziak mould in hand and he's cast some soft lead bullets to try. The carbines themselves are tight. The vegetable wads will be next. Preliminary tests were promising. We're not looking for one hole accuracy, just a fighting chance to, say, hit a bull in the butt at 100 yards.