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Thread: 1863 Remington Rifle, aka "Zouave"

  1. #1
    John Holland is offline Moderator
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    1863 Remington Rifle, aka "Zouave"

    This discussion started on the WTS/WTB page. A poster made the suggestion that it was misplaced. I agree, so here we go folks! What are your thoughts?

    It was mentioned that a "Zouave" was dug in a trench once upon a time. This is a legend that I've heard for some years now, but no one has ever been able to document it. There have been thousands of "gun parts" dug on Civil War sites, but not one single piece of a "Zouave". Not to the best of my knowledge anyway.

    It was stated previously that the Federal Gov't contracted with Remington for "1855 type rifles". That is correct, and is a matter of record. But, the Gov't certainly didn't get what they thought they contracted for! What they got was a very clever product that utilized all the surplus 1841Mississippi Rifle parts Remington had left over from their last contract.

    According to records Bannerman bought the entire lot from the Federal Government after the Civil War.

    There is a persistant story that the French bought an unknown quantity of "Zouaves" from Bannerman early in the Franco-Prussian War and that they became German war trophys. It is interesting that at the first International Muzzle Loading Match the entire German Military Team was armed with brand new nearly unfired "Zouaves".

    Carry on!

    JDH

  2. #2
    Jim Brady Knap's Battery is offline
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    Re: 1863 Remington Rifle, aka "Zouave"

    John,

    I seem to remember reading the contract as calling for "Harpers Ferry Rifles" without specifying a particular model. This allowed Remington to combine the better features of the 1841 and 1855 Harpers Ferry Rifles which turned into the "Zouave." Also I read that the folks in Liege wound up with a number of the Remingtons that they bored smooth for the African trade. These have a Liege proof on the barrel at the left of the rear sight on the two I have had my hands on over the years.
    In the debate about their seeing any service during the war we may want to consider that by the time they were in govt hands they were a seriously non-standard item. By 63 the military was getting weary of the logistics of having quantities of non-standard infantry weapons in the field and was intent on standardizing with the Springfield Rifle Musket patterns and were receiving sufficient quantities of Springfield and contract made rifle muskets to satisfy the demand. No army likes having a complicated ammo supply and maintenance problem plus they want everybody to look as much alike as possible.
    That's the impressions I have had from what I have read. I believe the "Zouave's" stayed in the crates until Bannerman got ahold of them.

    Jim Brady
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    Jim Brady
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  3. Re: 1863 Remington Rifle, aka "Zouave"

    About 20 years ago, when Mr. Norm Flayderman still offered a print catalog, he had a military document in one of them which, by the wording, date, and context, lead Mr. F to believe it gave proof of issuance of the Zouave rifle. From what I remember, the wording of this document was something like "Our NEW Remington rifles with sword bayonet have been received," and was dated either 1863 or 64.

    For something a little more substantial, on page 116 of The U.S. Model 1861 Springfield Rifle-Musket by Hartzler, Yantz, and Whisker, is pictured a Zouave rifle with bayonet, and the following caption.

    "This unfired Remington [Zouave] rifle was brought home from the war by a Brightbill from Bedford, Pennsylvania. He paid $6.00 for the rifle and $2.00 more for the bayonet, upon discharge in Cumberland, Maryland. Dr. James B. Whisker Collection."

    John Gross

  4. #4
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    Re: 1863 Remington Rifle, aka "Zouave"

    Harpers Ferry Rifle's, M-1803, 1819 Hall rifles and carbines, M-1841 and the M-1855.
    Within the time period, the M-1841 and the M-1855 (rifles only) will be referred to as Harpers Ferry Rifles interchangeably.(Springfield does not make any of these)
    Remington does contract to make the M-1841 Rifle along with several other private arms makes.
    The contract let to Remington dose indeed state Harpers Ferry Rifles with out designating a specific model year type.
    Remington has the tooling from the M-1841 production. They builds their new model around the '41 lock type and barrel. They change the furniture to be very "similar" in shape and size to the brass mounted M-1855 Rifle. Curved butt plate, small patch box cover, short trigger plate, side lock washes, solid oval barrel bands place in about the same place as was on the '55 Rifles.

    I have examined the relic remains of a Rifle that was excavated in and around the Richmond area. (Emergency Archeology resulting from Utility work) I helped Identify the this Rifle as an 1863 Remington Contract Rifle aka "Zouave". The brass furniture could have only been from that model firearm.
    I requested a copy of the finished report so that I might see the overall context this Rifle was found in with this excavation.
    This might have helped determine a time frame as to when the Rifle was lost. Was it a War time issuance, or post-war? I just don't know.
    I never got a copy of that report. There may never actually have been a report written.
    Blair

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    Jim Brady Knap's Battery is offline
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    Re: 1863 Remington Rifle, aka "Zouave"

    Wow. It's a shame there is no hard evidence available like photos or the parts themselves. It would probably be a simple thing to get some testing done to ball park how long the stuff was in the ground.

    Jim Brady
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    John Holland is offline Moderator
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    Re: 1863 Remington Rifle, aka "Zouave"

    Blair -

    Since you personaly examined the excavated parts of the "Zouave", can you tell us exactly what parts you handled? Barrel, bands, lock, trigger guard, nose cap, etc?

    I am very interested in the exact parts, date, and location. In addition, do you know who dug the relics, i.e., was it an archaeological CRM team (Cultural Resource Management). I ask these questions because if it was a CRM group reports are mandatory, although the Gov't doesn't always enforce the regulations.

    Thanks,
    John

  7. #7
    Ron/The Old Reb Guest

    Re: 1863 Remington Rifle, aka "Zouave"

    Ok I am going to put fourth another question. If Zovaes were not issued then why are they allowed for NSSA competition? And why Roger & Spenser's which we know were never issued and steel frame Henry's which the government never purchase. And then there is the caseharden frame Henry that was never manufacture. This may be a question for John Holland. :?

  8. Re: 1863 Remington Rifle, aka "Zouave"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron/McGregor's
    Ok I am going to put fourth another question. If Zovaes were not issued then why are they allowed for NSSA competition?
    Well, first off, the information I posted does offer some evidence that they were issued. Also, if there is more info available about the excavated relic Blair handled that may bolster the case for their issuance.

    As to their eligibility in matches, even if they were never issued, if I am reading your rule 14.1 correctly it states that "[Eligible arms] must have been manufactured prior to April 26, 1865 in quantities of at least 100 arms each. The arms must have been possessed by a US, CS, state, or local military authority during the American Civil War, but they do not need to have been issued to troops in the field."

    John Gross

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    Re: 1863 Remington Rifle, aka "Zouave"

    John,

    I examined the parts in one of the many State/City owns (old tobacco) warehouse located in the "old burnt district" of Richmond, VA. These were warehouses where a lot of such things were stored.
    The parts I handled were the remains of what looked to be a complete rifle less about 90/95% of the wood.
    These parts were in a cut in half plastic drum with water. There were other items in the water as well, but I do not know if they were associated with this rifle.
    The butt plate and patch box were held together by a small amount of stock wood and separate from the other parts as a result of the decayed wood.
    The lock area also had some small amount of wood but was otherwise a mass of conceited rust. No names, dates or other makings were legible through the rust.
    I made my identification through the patch box cover, trigger plate (which was part of the concretion around the lock area) barrel bands and the nose cap (which were held by rust to the barrel and the remains of the ramrod).
    The excavation was conducted by a team from James River Archeology. (if I remember the name correctly)
    I can't, tell you the location of the find.
    Blair

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    Re: 1863 Remington Rifle, aka "Zouave"

    You guys are making me nervous. I finally got my Zoili Zouave to perform just this past year (after about 14 years). I also have reached a modicum of hope that I might actually hit a target with my Rogers & Spencer. Why don't you switch the discussion to the pronunciation of Zouave. N-SSAers say ZOO-AHVE (two sylables). Mr. Webster says ZWAAVE --->(only one sylable)

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