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Thread: Lorenz Question

  1. #1
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    Lorenz Question

    Were Lorenz rifles ever cut down to a short (two band style) configuration? If that is a yes, are they legal for competition?

    Thank you
    Jim Willauer
    CV-011 Cockade Rifles

  2. #2
    Don Dixon is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimW View Post
    Were Lorenz rifles ever cut down to a short (two band style) configuration? If that is a yes, are they legal for competition?
    First, there was a two-band configuration weapon manufactured by the Austrian Army: the Muster 1854 Extra Corps carbine. It was intended for use by support troops such as engineers, pontooniers, train [logistics], medical, and naval infantry, who would not normally be expected to stand in the line of battle but needed something more effective than a handgun. Barrel length was 26.25 inches. Since one finds them in sales by surplus dealers such as Schuyler, Hartley, and Graham after the war, I believe some were imported during the war. But documenting importation is the problem. They don't appear in Federal Army records. The TO&E of an Austrian artillery battery included 16 Extra Corps carbines carried in battery wagons for guard duty. The Confederates purchased at least 15 batteries described in the associated correspondence as "complete." So, there should have been at least 240 carbines in the sale. If John Holland and the Small Arms Committee accept that as proof of purchase then an Extra Corps would be legal.

    After the war, large numbers of surplus arms were sporterized; bored smooth for use as fowling pieces or shortened for use as inexpensive "barn guns." Additionally, BG Gorgas directed that damaged weapons be salvaged by being cut back to the longest possible useful barrel length. Some such Confederate salvage arms have been authorized for N-SSA use. In the case of the Austrians, how one would separate the two, or document the number that the Confederates salvaged - since one needs 100 weapons to use a weapons type in the N-SSA - I don't know. Confederate salvage could have resulted a in two-band length System Lorenz weapon. I have seen three single band, carbine length weapons with 26-27 inch barrels which I believe were the wartime work of a Confederate arsenal in the Trans-Mississippi because all three had what appeared to be professionally manufactured and installed sling bars and rings, making them suitable for cavalry use. That wasn't the kind of modification that would have been made in sporterization, but that doesn't make a documented 100 arms.

    Regards,
    Don Dixon
    2881V
    Last edited by Don Dixon; 04-30-2022 at 08:16 AM.

  3. #3
    Joe Coyle is offline
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    Lorenz question

    Thanks, great information. I have a Lorenz. It's been bored out to .58 and the cheek piece machined off so it's probably a Federal gun. I've been thinking about having it sleeved back to .54 and using it on the line. But getting some detailed history is always good

  4. #4
    Carolina Reb is offline
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    The Arms Moravia short rifle is approved, so I would expect that an original would be as well. One of our team members shoots an Arms Moravia.

  5. #5
    Don Dixon is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Coyle View Post
    I have a Lorenz. It's been bored out to .58 and the cheek piece machined off so it's probably a Federal gun. I've been thinking about having it sleeved back to .54 and using it on the line. But getting some detailed history is always good
    The cheek piece probably wasn't machined off. Lack of a cheek piece is one of the indications that a Muster 1854 rifle musket was manufactured for export. You could use a thinner stock blank. Some Muster 1854 were manufactured by the Austrians in .58 caliber for the Federals, some were bored out in Austria for the Federals in .58, and beginning in mid-1863 the Federals began boring out Muster 1854, Type II, rifle muskets to .58 so that they could use the same ammunition as the Springfields and Enfields in the Federal Army inventory. What you have is completely correct, and if the bore is in good shape I wouldn't screw with it.
    Last edited by Don Dixon; 04-29-2022 at 02:08 PM.

  6. #6
    Joe Coyle is offline
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    Lorenz question

    Yeah but the bore is not good the muzzle is worn pretty good. If I do it for competition the trigger will need major work also. I never measured it but 15-20 lbs. wouldn't surprise me. Joe Newman will have his work cut out for him for sure. I do love the look of the gun and fact is I've found more people in the N-SSA appreciate the history then the people who reenact. I'm new to N-SSA and not new to living history and that was an eye opening revelation.

  7. #7
    Don Dixon is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carolina Reb View Post
    The Arms Moravia short rifle is approved, so I would expect that an original would be as well. One of our team members shoots an Arms Moravia.
    We are talking about apples and oranges. You are talking about the Muster 1854 Jaegerstutzen. The Muster 1854 Extra Corps carbine looks like a shortened Muster 1854, Type I, rifle musket. See the attached photo. No one makes a reproduction of it.

    Regards,
    Don Dixon
    2881V

    Copyright D.E. Dixon
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    Last edited by Don Dixon; 04-29-2022 at 02:05 PM.

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    in other words leave it be for history sake..

  9. #9
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    Shortened

    I have a couple of Lorenzs both of which need work to be shootable. I am wondering if I should try to figure a way to get toward one useable gun - or get rid of them both.
    Jim Willauer
    CV-011 Cockade Rifles

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