David Minshall - www.researchpress.co.uk - www.facebook.com/ResearchPress
Firearms, long range target shooting and associated history
Fact ......... There is the English model and then the Italian made model. Fact ......... The barrels may be marked exactly alike. The locks internals ARE made differently. The 1st, English made guns have a PH circle stamped into the stock BEFORE the finish was applied. The Italian stocks stamp is stamped AFTER the stock finish was applied. This stamp clearly shows raw wood underneath. If you look you can see it is through the finish. A lot of the previous information is true, but you need to understand that there we are talking about 2 different manufacturers involved and and that they were not made the same way.
Val Jr or his dad, I heard, bought the trade name PH after they stopped production of the English made guns. His guns have a lot of Italian content. The earliest made Italian guns may even have some left over English made parts in them. When they bought the PH company name they may have also bought the remaining stock left in England.
Facts need to be presented in the correct sequence in time, in order to understand them..............
Some additional info that may also be of value : When Parker Hale stopped making muzzle loaders, they sold the naming rights to Euroarms Italia, SrL. For a period of time, Euroarms produced and sold what was essentially their own reproduction Enfield with a Parker Hale barrel for about twice the price...... I found this on a civil war talk site. This may refute the Val influence as I had heard it or Val Jr may have played a part in this at the time, I don't know.
Last edited by Bruce Cobb 1723V; 11-08-2019 at 12:20 PM.
N-SSA Member since 1974
Do you have a serial number sequence that Forgett's rifles were made ?
Contact infoNavy Arms, LLC 54 Dupont Rd, Martinsburg, WV 25404 304-274-0004Info@NavyArms.com
N-SSA Member since 1974
Bruce all good points and I understand that.
My discussion points and information direct from a Parker-Hale engineer relate to their Enfield reproductions that started with a boardroom meeting in 1971. The first result was the P.1861 Artillery Carbine introduced in 1972.
The Muzzle Loaders Association of Great Britain published an announcement in June 1992 from Vale Forgett III, President of Navy Arms and Gibbs Rifle Company Inc. It was confirmed then that Enfield reproduction rifles would be in production by mid summer. In February 1993 news appeared that their production of the "Parker-Hale" type Navy 1858 rifle had commenced.
David
David Minshall - www.researchpress.co.uk - www.facebook.com/ResearchPress
Firearms, long range target shooting and associated history
Hello:
Tx, Bruce.
There is also the public lawsuit trail between Val and Roger Hale and the Italians.
Soon after Roger started his Enfield venture, Val "registered" the name "Enfield" and began to legally assert that P-H was infringing. Roger and others also sued ended up in some settlement that left P-H selling to Val.
At least one other person Val sued successfully defended his use of "Enfield" in U.S. Federal Court.
Three Americans who lived through this stuff have, this week, shared with me that they are simply tired of all this and don't care about clarifications any more.
Most respectfully,
Kevin Tinny
All great information from knowledgeable people who have a historical perspective regarding these reproductions .... Thanks
N-SSA Member since 1974
There are 2 different timelines here....the UK made rifles and then the Italian made rifles.
Nothing new with that, old info.
That's interesting. I'm aware of one unsuccessful attempt by Val to sue a company for alleged copyright infringment, but not the Parker-Hale connection.
Do you have any more information on the timeline of this? The Parker-Hale 'Enfield venture' commenced in the latter part of 1972 when the P.61 Artillery Carbine was introduced. News of the sale of part of Parker-Hale business, including its percussion rifle section, to Navy Arms was reaching public domain in the latter part of 1990. That's potentially a long old lawsuit.
Thanks.
David
David Minshall - www.researchpress.co.uk - www.facebook.com/ResearchPress
Firearms, long range target shooting and associated history
Yes, that's my understanding, and with around 20 years between the two stories. It's an engaging subject and I think worthwhile teasing out the details. Through the MLAGB archive I hold there is much coverage and advertising of P-H rifles in their journal, and match reports recording for example Roger Hale's attendence shooting prototype P.53 and P.58 rifles.
David
Last edited by dbm; 11-10-2019 at 01:51 AM. Reason: typo correction
David Minshall - www.researchpress.co.uk - www.facebook.com/ResearchPress
Firearms, long range target shooting and associated history
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