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Thread: Parker Hale Musketoon Quality?

  1. #21
    Kevin Tinny is offline
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    Hello, David:

    I spoke with the fellow that related the Leeds info and he agreed that it was in your timeframe that he visited, which was well after the P-H Musketoon appeared. But, he was also involved with the Amadi parts aspect in the beginning.

    He reaffirmed:

    P-H may have considered making the entire musketoon in England using a hammer-forged barrel, but told him that what was left of the machinery and tooling from the Enfield days was incomplete and that the cost to rebuild/replace missing original tooling was cost prohibitive.

    I may regret the following, but have no dog in this fight, so here goes:

    This morning I spoke with Tom Hunger, who was involved along with Brannen Sanders in Euroarms and the Amadi family, both the father and son. Tom strongly shared that he, Brannen and one other know for sure that the production PH musketoons, where ever sold, were ALL built in England using mostly Italian parts and Italian barrel blanks that were rifled and proofed in England. Tom doubts the Amadi family will be responsive. He added that it is possible that P-H made prototype samples completely in England, but NOT the production ones.

    Tom said this subject has been beaten to death and that for some reason people simply want to believe in the "All British" version.

    Tom spoke well of Brannen and added that he may be the only remaining first-hand witness.

    Again, I am only speaking about parts sourcing, not quality.

    Very respectfully,
    Kevin Tinny
    Last edited by Kevin Tinny; 10-27-2019 at 05:11 PM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Tinny View Post
    P-H may have considered making the entire musketoon in England using a hammer-forged barrel, but told him that what was left of the machinery and tooling from the Enfield days was incomplete and that the cost to rebuild/replace missing original tooling was cost prohibitive.
    Parker-Hale had no need nor insofar as I know intent to use original Enfield machinery. They had their own barrel making machinery for cold forging as related in the two links that I posted in my previous message. I'm not sure what the apparent confusion is over this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Tinny View Post
    I may regret the following, but have no dog in this fight
    Me neither, it's an interesting story and worth teasing out as there is so much myth and misconception. I don't know Tom, but Brannen and I have had infrequent contact for a number of years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Tinny View Post
    Tom said this subject has been beaten to death and that for some reason people simply want to believe in the "All British" version. Tom spoke well of Brannen and added that he may be the only remaining first-hand witness.
    I know the Parker-Hale production engineer who instigated matters back in the early 70's, who sourced the inspector's gauges from the Enfield Pattern Room, prepared the production drawings from them and set up the bone charcoal colour case hardening workshop. I'll have another chat with him in a few days.

    David
    David Minshall - www.researchpress.co.uk - www.facebook.com/ResearchPress
    Firearms, long range target shooting and associated history

  3. #23
    John Holland is offline Moderator
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    Thank you, gentlemen, for this absolutely fascinating discussion....Please continue!

  4. #24
    Blair is offline
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    Hi All,
    It has been awhile.
    I would like to suggest two correction to the above info...
    1. is, It is Armi San Paolo for Euroarms. (not Armi San Marko)
    2. It is Enfield Lock on the Leeds Canal. This being a canal lock, not a gun lock. I hope this helps clear things up a bit.
    Aside from these two suggested corrections, I would like to say that what info Kevin has imparted is very true.

    My best,
    Blair
    Last edited by Blair; 10-29-2019 at 02:45 PM.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blair View Post
    2. It is Enfield Lock on the Leeds Canal. This being a canal lock, not a gun lock. I hope this helps clear things up a bit.
    Enfield Lock is on the Lee Navigation, a canalised river connecting to the River Thames.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blair View Post
    Aside from these two suggested corrections, I would like to say that what info Kevin has imparted is very true.
    Please confirm your source of information that supports the assertion that Parker-Hale Enfields were made using Italian sourced parts. Thanks.

    David
    David Minshall - www.researchpress.co.uk - www.facebook.com/ResearchPress
    Firearms, long range target shooting and associated history

  6. #26
    ikesdad is offline
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    I reckon David will get to the bottom of this.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Tinny View Post
    know for sure that the production PH musketoons, where ever sold, were ALL built in England using mostly Italian parts and Italian barrel blanks that were rifled and proofed in England. Tom doubts the Amadi family will be responsive. He added that it is possible that P-H made prototype samples completely in England, but NOT the production ones.
    Swapped a few emails and had a good chat with the Parker-Hale Production Engineer, that along with the Chief Designer and Works Manager brought the Parker-Hale Enfield rifle reproductions to us in the early 1970s. This is the man that sourced the Inspectors Gauges from the Pattern Room, Enfield, and prepared drawings to enable tooling.

    He has confirmed that the lock components i.e. hammer, sear, tumbler, bridle & link were produced by Deritend castings (UK) who also cast the breech plug, trigger, barrel bands and sight components; all parts were machined in house at P-H to the specified drawing tolerances. Barrel stock was sourced from British Steel, and chopped, deep hole bored and reamed by P-H. Rifling was completed by cold forging on P-H plant.

    Following is an advert for the 1861 Enfield Artillery Carbine from the MLAGB's Black Powder magazine of November 1974.

    Name:  rp-19741100 BlackPowderV21N7-P61.jpg
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    David
    Last edited by dbm; 11-03-2019 at 03:29 AM. Reason: P-H advert for P.61 added
    David Minshall - www.researchpress.co.uk - www.facebook.com/ResearchPress
    Firearms, long range target shooting and associated history

  8. #28
    ikesdad is offline
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    Figured as much.

  9. #29
    Earl Burlin is offline
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    Friends, when I started this thread, I had NO IDEA of the conversations it would ignite. This is a very informative thread, for sure! Lots and lots of things to chew on. What is fact? What is the truth? Perhaps we might never know the total answer...

    Regardless, my musketoon arrived today, and what a sight it is to behold!!

    Name:  1BDB5D14-7BB9-4AFB-9949-3A26A4B21D6A.jpg
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    Its in excellent shape. I love it!! Came in the original factory PH box and has a bunch of nifty literature to go with it. This is my first Civil War style long arm. WHOEVER built it, the quality appears to be outstanding. I?m just waiting on my range rod and jags to get here before hitting the range.

    Guys, let?s keep this discussion going. I feel very honored and proud to have made new friends here and am so thankful for everyone helping me on my journey!!

    PS: What would be a correct civil war era sling for this rifle, and does anyone make a reproduction? Thanks!

  10. #30
    ikesdad is offline
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    David is on the ground in the UK. I would think he has the straight skinny.

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