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Thread: Parker Hale Musketoon Quality?

  1. #11
    geezmo is offline
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    Kevin and Earl,

    Don't be sorry or worried about divisiveness. It' not that important an issue.

  2. #12
    Kevin Tinny is offline
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    Hello:

    More info/clarifications:

    Am not concerned about sensitivities; only accuracy.

    P-H conceived the P-H Enfield repro and took the project to Italy for parts sourcing.
    They borrowed the patterns from the Leeds Museum and a sample Enfield from The Tower of London, both for loan to Italy. So Italy had BOTH patterns and a museum sample rifle.
    The Italians copied the British patterns so I believe the "patterns" with Val's son are the Italian copies because whatever was loaned from England was returned.

    The Italian bridles had "PH" stamped on them because P-H wanted that marking.
    All stocks for musketoons as well as for the two and three banders were made in Italy.

    Original Enfield barrels were hammer forged, NOT CUT-RIFLED, in a way that imparted rifling with progressive depth grooves. That same .577 equipment was later converted to do CUT-rifled 303 British barrels and LATER converted to CUT-rifle the Italian drilled and reamed blanks in England.
    Since the "barrels had to be rifled PRIOR to proof", the British proof was imparted.

    Again, I am not impuning in any way the quality of these P-H repro's.
    I am indebted to two individuals who were "there" for this information.

    Very respectfully,
    Kevin Tinny
    Last edited by Kevin Tinny; 3 Weeks Ago at 04:44 PM.

  3. #13
    Earl Burlin is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Tinny View Post
    Hello:

    More info/clarifications:

    Am not concerned about sensitivities; only accuracy.

    P-H conceived the P-H Enfield repro and took the project to Italy for parts sourcing.
    They borrowed the patterns from the Leeds Museum and a sample Enfield from The Tower of London, both for loan to Italy. So Italy had BOTH patterns and a museum sample rifle.
    The Italians copied the British patterns so I believe the "patterns" with Val's son are the Italian copies because whatever was loaned from England was returned.

    The Italian bridles had "PH" stamped on them because P-H wanted that marking.
    All stocks for musketoons as well as for the two and three banders were made in Italy.

    Original Enfield barrels were hammer forged, NOT CUT-RIFLED, in a way that imparted rifling with progressive depth grooves. That same .577 equipment was later converted to do CUT-rifled 303 British barrels and LATER converted to CUT-rifle the Italian drilled and reamed blanks in England.
    Since the "barrels had to be rifled PRIOR to proof", the British proof was imparted.

    Again, I am not impuning in any way the quality of these P-H repro's.
    I am indebted to two individuals who were "there" for this information.

    Very respectfully,
    Kevin Tinny
    Extremely interesting, Mr. Tinny.

    There are many people out there who own early Parker Hale reproduction Enfields who are of the belief that every last part of the guns were made in England.

    it appears this is absolutely NOT the case, and in fact, only a few parts were made there and the guns instead were just assembled and rifled there, with the British only manufacturing a few parts, the springs and breeches.

    Hopefully owners of these muskets will stumble upon this thread and learn the truth. I myself sought out an early PH musketoon specifically because I had read numerous times that they were totally English-made and also had progressive depth rifling.

    Seems I might have been more ahead to just get the Pedersoli version which from my readings seem to be ?defarbed? right out of the box. I?ve read mixed reports about whether prog. depth rifling is even beneficial to a Minie rifle.

    Alas, we might all have been dupped by false information and judgment clouded by the (false) lore surrounding these guns...

  4. #14
    PoorJack is offline
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    Since I'm not reenacting anymore, I couldn't care less about "defarbing". The only accuracy I care about these days is A) Is it SAC approved and B) Accurate if I do my part. Anything else is an original collectible that I'd be hesitant to skirmish with.
    "A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"
    Rudyard Kipling

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Tinny View Post
    My understanding, recently recounted to me by one who was deeply involved from the beginning, but is no longer active on our Forum is that P-H Enfields were assembled in England using Italian made/drilled and reamed UNRIFLED barrel blanks. They were rifled in England using rifling machinery that was surplus WWII 303 British machinery. That machinery was modified to impart a form of "progressive" depth rifling, BUT the progressive DEPTH was not the same as in originals in that there was no provision to create the same groove depth at the muzzle for different length bores. Hence too deep at musketoon muzzles, but close for two-banders and shallower at the muzzle for three banders.
    Parker-Hale rifles had hammer forged barrels, the rifling being formed by a mandrel. What you're suggesting doesn't make sense to me as the P.61/P.58 had five groove 1 in 48 twist rifling and the P.53 is 3 groove 1 in 78 rifling. My understanding also from someone who was there at the time is that each rifle had an appropriate mandrel.

    My contact advised me that there was no Italian involvement other than the stock making.

    Parker-Hale made the barrels, the stock being chopped, deep hole bored, reamed and hammer forged by them in the UK. Casting for lock parts and brass were made by two different British companies, and a third made the screws, before being finished by Parker-Hale. Production was based on a set of drawings made from the Inspectors gauges borrowed from the Enfield Pattern Room. Main spring and sear springs came from several sources over a period of time - none Italian. Parker-Hale also set up facility to complete the colour case hardening.

    Obviously much myth and confusion surrounds the Parker-Hale Enfields with diverse sources of information... and now here's mine to add to the mix!!

    David
    David Minshall - www.researchpress.co.uk - www.facebook.com/ResearchPress
    Firearms, long range target shooting and associated history

  6. #16
    Southron Sr. is offline
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    My understanding is that in the initial production of the 3 Band Parker-Hale Enfields had a 3 land and groove, 1 in 48" twist barrels (like the Hay pattern Enfields) but the purists in the MLAGB insisted that the 3 bander Enfields have the 1 in 72" twist of the original, standard issue, 19th Century Rifle-Muskets.

    Hence, Parker-Hale heeded their wishes and produced their Rifle-Muskets with the 1 in 72" twist barrels for sale in the British Isles while the Rifle-Muskets with the 1 in 48" twist barrels were exported to the United States.

  7. #17
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    I am away from home right now so no access to my papers to confirm dates... but P-H original intent was to reproduce the Pattern rifles, which they did. The three band Enfield with 1 in 48 twist was a later production as I recall. The already established MLAGB Enfield competitions were for Pattern Rifles. Not being a Pattern Enfield the fast twist three band rifle wasn't permitted for those events. I do not believe that the MLAGB had any sway in insisting what P-H produced - they simply, and rightly in my view, determined that the non-Pattern rifle was not eligible for their Enfield matches.

    David
    Last edited by dbm; 3 Weeks Ago at 06:36 PM.
    David Minshall - www.researchpress.co.uk - www.facebook.com/ResearchPress
    Firearms, long range target shooting and associated history

  8. #18
    Kevin Tinny is offline
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    Hello:

    To make extra sure of my facts. I asked one of the several Americans who was involved with the Italian parts supplier to read this thread.

    He said:
    My information is correct.
    He was at the Leeds Museum and there wasn't sufficient tooling left for hammer forging.
    He said the rifing machine, which appeared "lathe-like" was bolted to the museum wall.
    Parker Hale wanted to use hammer forged barrels but the cost to obtain a complete set of tooling was prohibitive.
    The musketoon with approximately a 22 inch barrel was chosen because of the availability of the 303 rifling machinery that rifled that length.
    The Italian unrifled blanks were lapped in England to remove reamer marks and also after cut rifling to smooth the grooves. Hence they may not appear to be cut rifled.

    He was amused by the longstanding insistence that lock parts were made in England and said the Italian investment cast bridle with PH was CAST into it, not forged and a skilled metallurgist can tell.
    The stocks were "cut in Turkey", shipped to Italy and were in two pieces for import duty reasons.

    Finally, he invited anyone who questions the Italian involvement to contact the Amati family who owned and operated Armi San Marco and later Euroarms of Italy, where the parts were made.

    He observed that the Amati/Italian connection has been in the open since the beginning, but some insist otherwise.

    Edited for spelling.

    Respectfully,
    Kevin Tinny

  9. #19
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    Leeds has been mentioned above several times but the Royal Armouries Museum there didn’t open until 1996, over two decades after PH began their production. The gauges that PH borrowed came from the Pattern Room Enfield. Not sure what the Leeds connection is? What is the time-line of when the Italians were supposed to be involved with the production?

    Parker-Hale barrel making plant was acquired by Armalon in the UK. You can read about it here:
    http://tenconi.selfip.com/rapidweaver/armalon/

    My contact gave me the names of the UK companies involved in the procurement of parts and as a P-H employee from the inception of the Enfield repros. has some insight.

    It will be good to discuss this further, when I am home and have access to my papers.

    David
    David Minshall - www.researchpress.co.uk - www.facebook.com/ResearchPress
    Firearms, long range target shooting and associated history

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Tinny View Post
    barrel blanks. They were rifled in England using rifling machinery that was surplus WWII 303 British machinery. That machinery was modified to impart a form of "progressive" depth rifling, BUT the progressive DEPTH was not the same as in originals in that there was no provision to create the same groove depth at the muzzle for different length bores. Hence too deep at musketoon muzzles, but close for two-banders and shallower at the muzzle for three banders.
    Parker-Hale rifles had hammer forged barrels, the rifling being formed by a mandrel. What you're suggesting doesn't make sense to me as the P.61/P.58 had five groove 1 in 48 twist rifling and the P.53 is 3 groove 1 in 78 rifling.

    The earliest advert for the P.61 Enfield Artillery Carbine that I have is from November 1974, which states "5 grooved, cold forged barrel of best steel, original progressive depth rifling .008" deeper at breech than muzzle". That specification is correct, the originals being 0.013in deep at the breech and 0.005in at the muzzle (D.W. Bailey, British Military Longarms 1815-1865).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Tinny View Post
    Parker Hale wanted to use hammer forged barrels but the cost to obtain a complete set of tooling was prohibitive.
    Parker-Hale advertising for the Enfield family of rifles consistently refers to "barrels are rifled by the cold forging method." See also their history on-line that notes: "Once the largest producer of high power sporting rifles in the country, Parker-Hale invested heavily in the most modern machinery & techniques, and was acclaimed for having one of the finest barrel producing plants in Europe. Large scale horizontal forging machines, the first all-British barrel cold forging systems in the world, were actually designed by Parker-Hale. Together with several GFM cold forging machines and double spindle deep hole drillers, the company's machining capability for producing a perfectly finished bore to extremely fine tolerances is legendary."
    http://www.parker-hale.co.uk/index.php?pg=History&

    Parker-Hale barrel making plant was acquired by Armalon in the UK. You can read about it here:
    http://tenconi.selfip.com/rapidweaver/armalon/



    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Tinny View Post
    The musketoon with approximately a 22 inch barrel was chosen because of the availability of the 303 rifling machinery that rifled that length.
    Interesting then that they also managed to make the P.53 with its 39 inch barrel.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Tinny View Post
    They borrowed the patterns from the Leeds Museum and a sample Enfield from The Tower of London, both for loan to Italy. So Italy had BOTH patterns and a museum sample rifle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Tinny View Post
    He was at the Leeds Museum and there wasn't sufficient tooling left for hammer forging.
    As per my comment a couple of days ago? I'm not sure what the Leeds connection is. The Royal Armouries Museum there didn't open until 1996, over two decades after PH began their production. The gauges that PH borrowed came from the Pattern Room Enfield.
    https://royalarmouries.org/about-us/...seum-in-leeds/



    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Tinny View Post
    insistence that lock parts were made in England and said the Italian investment cast bridle with PH was CAST into it, not forged and a skilled metallurgist can tell. . . . Finally, he invited anyone who questions the Italian involvement to contact the Amati family who owned and operated Armi San Marco and later Euroarms of Italy, where the parts were made.
    That comment and the Euroarms connection is interesting, and makes me wonder if time lines have become confused here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Earl Burlin View Post
    I got a message this morning from a member here claiming that no Parker Hales were EVER made in England, that even the early ones were covertly made in Italy??
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Tinny View Post
    Am not concerned about sensitivities; only accuracy. P-H conceived the P-H Enfield repro and took the project to Italy for parts sourcing.
    Parker-Hale conceived the Enfield reproductions in 1971. Twenty-years later Target Gun (June 1991) magazine in the UK reviewed 'Euroarms .577 3-Band Enfield,' It as observed that "many people seem to suspect that in fact the Euroarms and the Parker-Hale Enfields were really made up with the parts from the same source, certainly the lock parts." When comparing Parker-Hale and Euroarms it was noted that "The hammers had some identiccal markings on them at one of two points, but intriguingly, the markings on the Euroarms hammer appeared less distinct - as if their mould had been taken from a Parker-Hale hammer!"

    Interesting that Mr. Tinny refers to "the Italian investment cast bridle with PH was CAST into it." The magazine review further notes "In the middle of the Birmingham gun?s bridle are stamped the letters P-H and there, in the same sport on the Euroarms part the same marks, faint and barely decipherable, could just be seen on its rough cast surface!"


    So in the many years since the first Parker-Hale Enfields appeared, is the production time line becoming confused? Does Mr. Tinny's Italian connection refer to the period of the demise of Parker-Hale in the UK and the licensing of their name by Euroarms?

    Can I be messaged how to contact the Amati family please? Thanks.

    David
    Last edited by dbm; 3 Weeks Ago at 03:33 PM.
    David Minshall - www.researchpress.co.uk - www.facebook.com/ResearchPress
    Firearms, long range target shooting and associated history

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