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Thread: Plastic Smith tubes with brass rivet

  1. #21
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    Here is the link to the Northeast Trading Company rivets:

    https://www.northeasttradeco.com/onl...ubes-p77824544

    Steve
    Steve Sheldon
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  2. #22
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    When you push the rivet bodies into the case hole, does a lot protrude into the cartridge cavity? Is it necessary to trim them in any way? Or do you just let it stick through freely into the cartridge?

    Thanks,
    Steve
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  3. #23
    P.Altland is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maillemaker View Post
    When you push the rivet bodies into the case hole, does a lot protrude into the cartridge cavity? Is it necessary to trim them in any way? Or do you just let it stick through freely into the cartridge?

    Thanks,
    Steve
    You peen the inside of the rivet flat to hold it in the flash hole.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Paul Altland
    21st Va. Md Guard Co. B

  4. #24
    Kevin Tinny is offline
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    Hello:

    More than one approach, perhaps.

    I have not peened and none have ever backed out in 25 shots from the same case and rivet in a test.
    All rivets performed fine in team matches with the same black plastic cases from S&S and accuracy was fine.
    The cases are quite easy to use and fired cases have not stuck in my original Smith chamber.
    Lube on the shoulder of a LOADED, CHAMBERED case can pull bullets out of the case if trying to clear on the line. If line called, I just get Safety Officer ok to shoot into bank.

    One thing:
    I place a minute amount of bullet lube in the outside face of the rivet to keep small amounts of powder from dribbling onto my simple arbor press base when seating bullets. I USED to leave the lube plug in the rivet until hang/miss fires last Fall. I now use a pick to clear the rivet hole just before placing rounds in my ctg box. No issues since then. Thanks, Glenn for that tip.

    Very respectfully,
    Kevin Tinny
    Last edited by Kevin Tinny; 03-24-2020 at 12:32 PM.

  5. #25
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    Hi Kevin,

    Thanks for the info.

    Why do you use a press to seat the bullets? Can you not just use your fingers to stuff them in?

    Steve
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  6. #26
    Kevin Tinny is offline
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    Hello, Steve:

    Sorry, I should have included that the loaded overall length ("OAL") mattered during my scope sighted bench accuracy testing.

    With internally shoulderless plastic cases, it was easiest to achieve that and prevent bullet tilt (slightly chamfered mouth ID's) with light arbor pressure so the handle reached the same arc position.
    I do finger start the bullets and watch for straight line seating.
    The square press tip contact with the bullet's flat tip helps, too.

    Used a vernier caliper to measure. Just about any lube has been fine. SPG, MDM, N-LUBE, etc.

    Please test OAL and the presence or not of bullet contact with the rear of the rifling for yourself.
    Original Smiths and Maynards, per John Bly, had a dlight leade "leade" into the rifling so the bullet either sits off of or contacts the leade depending on OAL.

    27APR20 UPDATE:
    John Bly sent me a photo of a blown chamber original Maynard 50 cal and the slight leade is visible. I recall handling that blown barrel in Bruce Cobb's booth, but didn't notice the leade. I just looked at my original Smith 10574 and it also has a slight leade. So, originals DID have leades. Thanks John and Bruce. Kevin

    I know some simply finger seat so the bullet base sits ON the shoulder in METALLIC cases, but there is no such shoulder, only a slight taper that amounts to a constriction, in the plastics.

    I am aware that some seat the bullet short of contact and some prefer contact.

    As Bly shared with me, most Civil War era carbines, including Smiths and Maynards are individually different in terms of what works for best accuracy. Some do best with pure lead and others with alloy bullets.

    My Smith tests favor the Bly shortened Lyman 515141, with DISTINCT driving band in 30 lead to 1 tin.alloy, NO lube on base, and seated NOT to contact the shoulder at the end of the chamber.
    Caution, Lyman "cherries" VARY in shape and some lack and some have a driving band for the SAME bullet number!

    I found that if the OAL creates bullet contact, extra closing force is needed to COMPLETE action closing.
    This can lead to erratic closing during our events and the need to reclose at times.
    A little clearance is peace of mind if accuracy ok. And the action is stressed less.
    As a Brit shotgun guru told me: Do you slam you car door closed? H'mmm.

    Dreaming of the next Nationals. I appreciate our Shoots and our leadership MORE.
    Everything is a test ...
    "Cool heads will prevail." Pat Brady, CMOH.

    Very respectfully,
    Kevin Tinny

    Edited for typo's.
    Last edited by Kevin Tinny; 04-27-2020 at 08:19 PM.

  7. #27
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    Interesting. I was planning on leaving the bullets proud so they would be pushed into the rifling when the action is closed. I have tried this using the Yore tubes and it does not seem to require any great force to push the bullets into the tubes, either by hand or when closing the action.

    Steve
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  8. #28
    Kevin Tinny is offline
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    Yes, Steve, on seating into the rifling with plastics:

    Yipes on range time to resolve the variables.

    Short version: Try different things. I found many things that did and did NOT matter.

    The closing resistance was greater with the internal shoulder in the METALLICS when an ALLOY bullet was used that did project against the square chamber end and slightly into the rifling.

    John Bly cannot see a benefit from a slight "leade", but imparts them in his Maynards for peace of mind.
    Larry Romano uses a leade in all of his breech loader chambers and says it helps.
    It requires a special piloted, not "chucking" reamer, TO impart the leade uniformly.
    Shiloh Sharps does, also. Why would THEY impart something that doesn't help.
    The chambers of Bobby's that I have seen or asked about do not appear to have leades.

    One insidious thing:
    The bore must be well-centered IN the blank to prevent chambering problems AND the square shoulder end of the chamber must BE square WITH the bore. If there is runout in the bore at the chamber end of the blank, chambering can impart an unsquare shoulder that creates an accuracy nightmare. Ask John Bly.

    I chamfer the mouths with a swivel tip deburring tool. Quick and uniform.

    My ORIGINAL, with a slight leade, shoots exceptionally.
    My tests with varied bullet DIAMETER vs. groove diameter, alloy, bullet lube, powder granulation, charge weight and bullet contact left me with .0015" over groove diameter, 30:1 pure lead:tin, SPG, 3F SWISS, the wad and no contact. No contact still has me bothered, but accurscy is sooo consistently good. Yes, most don't report using 3F Swiss.

    I was surprised that with the plastic S&S cases, seating a bit short of chamber contact did NOT reduce accuracy.
    By the way, even with no bullet "contact/engraving", the lube ring on the face of my chambered rounds creates enough STICTION that if I try to pull out a loaded cartridge, the non-engraving bullet usually stays in the chamber and powder may foul it.

    I do not know if YORE plastic Smith carbine tubes are different from the ones otherwise widely attributed to Jackie V. Do the YORE's have any internal shoulder?

    The black S&S ones have an internal profile that seems to create the same volume as metallics with a shoulder.
    This was a pleasant surprise so I do not use filler. I do use a .125" .515" Circle Fly wad under the bullet.
    I cannot see that the wad helps accuracy for me, but it seems to act as a filler and make uniform seating depth simpler. Others prefer filler and no wad. So it goes.

    Yes, it shoots! Now I have to find a shooter. Have to love it. The PEOPLE are WHY.
    And sorry for being wordy.
    At my age, might not get a second opportunity to share all the stuff others here have. Thanks.

    Edited for cell phone, watery eyes typo's and Bly's reference to Bruce Cobb's blown original 50 Maynard barrel showing a slight leade. Kevin

    VR/ Kevin
    Last edited by Kevin Tinny; 04-27-2020 at 08:22 PM.

  9. #29
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    Hi Kevin,

    Great stuff, thanks. I have not yet shot this Smith. Can't wait to get to the range.

    I chamfer the mouths with a swivel tip deburring tool. Quick and uniform.
    I assume you are talking about metallic cases.

    I have the Yore tubes, and just ordered the usual black Smith tubes and rivets to make them have grommets in their touch holes.

    The Yore tube has no shoulder for the bullet to rest against. It's just a straight-in bore. You push the bullet in with your fingers. Nothing stops it (other than the powder). Here is a picture of them:



    I made up some test charges from in 25, 27, 29, 31, and 33 grains 3F Goex. For the reduced loads I put a cardboard wad (punched from cereal boxes) on top of the powder to keep the powder at the back of the case. There is a small air gap between the wad and the bullet for 25, 27, and 29 grains. I assume this will not be a problem. I could put in filler but I'd rather not. Especially since I think 30 grains is the "usual" load anyway and won't need filler.

    I made up alloy using 1:20 tin:lead alloy. With the Lee Hardness Tester it scoped out with a hardness of BHN 8.






    I've got some "Henry" ammunition that was given to me of unknown alloy. It is coming up with a BHN of about 6.7.

    But, 1:20 alloy should have have a hardness of 10. 1:30 should have a hardness of 8. I am 100% certain of my 1:20 alloy composition as I made it myself. So if my 8 should be 10, then perhaps my "Henry" 6.7 should be 8.7, which would put it at about 1:30 alloy.

    I haven't used the Henry alloy for anything.

    Steve
    Steve Sheldon
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  10. #30
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    Steve Sheldon
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