Loyalist Arms (Canada) Palmetto 1842 smoothbore

[Gordon Bailey]

What is known about this offering? Will the SAC accept it? I suspect not but a new team member was attracted by the price.
Gordon Bailey

[John Holland]

Gordon,

You are correct, it is not accepted by the Small Arms Committee for use in the N-SSA.

John Holland
Chairman, Small Arms Committee

[RaiderANV]

Ut-oh :shock: What's wrong with it John. I was about to pick one up really really cheap. :cry:

[John Holland]

We've covered this numerous times before, but I don't mind doing it again. These arms are imported into Canada unvented. This means they are imported as decorators. This also means the barrels are not proofed for firing a projectile. That is where the N-SSA's Small Arms Committee parts company with them. We have never even had one submitted to us to see if they are dimensionally correct.

Pat...they must be "...really really cheap..." for a reason!

John Holland
SAC

[Mike w/ 34th]

Pat,

See this page for what can happen with these Indian repros.

http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/1466

When you drill the vent, if you drill it wrong and it crosses the breech plug threads, powder can get into the poorly-fitted theads and blow the barrel apart.

My rule for keeping all my digits intact, "If it's not proofed, it's not a gun." No proofie, no bang bang.

Loyalist Arms makes some fine guns from Italian parts, but the Indian stuff is dreck.

Cheers,

Mike

[threepdr]

I'm involved in the Rev War living history and a great many of the Indian made muskets are used in the hobby. Many are also used for live fire. The only one that has ever "blown" is he one that is show in the link above. A recent labaratory analysis of the gun revealed that a bore obstruction (contrary to what the owner claims) was the culpret. The steel used in the barrel is the same grade as used in most Italian repros.

The fit and finish of many of these guns is not as good as the Italian repros, but I don't think they should be discounted purly on where they were made. The unvented status is not because they are decorator quality, but because it is much easier to ship them to non-gunfreindly countries if they are not operational.

As far as the measurements etc, most will be as good or better than the Italian reproductions. We would have to disqualify many of our Italian guns if that became an actual discriminator.

I have never handled any of the percussion guns, my comments are based on the Flintlock reproductions that are coming from the same sources.

[Mike w/ 34th]

Mark,

How do you get an obstructed barrel when shooting blanks? Not being facetious, I really want to know how this happened, so it doesn't happen to the guy standing next to or behind me. My Rev War group doesn't allow Indian muskets at all, partly because of this incident. The guys who did have them said the finish did not hold up, and the guns looked like war relics after one season of use, despite constant cleaning and polishing.

And begging to differ, some ads for these Indian guns say that the barrels are made from DOM high pressure tubing (hydraulic tubing) which is turned down to barrel shape. DOM is not rated for the pressures generated by live firing. This is not how the Italians make barrels.

Other Indian and Khyber Pass guns have been shot to destruction besides just this one. In a controlled test on a Khyber Martini-Enfield, it took less than 20 rounds to distort the frame of the rifle, to the point where the action didn't work. After fixing that, the rifle energetically disassembled itself after less than 100 rounds of standard pressure .303 ball. These are not freak occurrences, they're repeatable and provable tests.

I have an Indian-made Bess, as well as a Japanese and an English one. You can probably guess which ones I fire and which one I use for decoration. The Indian gun's lock was garbage, too, hand fitted parts not hardened enough to stand up to any amount of wear at all. By not venting the barrel, they're circumventing the laws requiring guns to be proofed, which--yes--makes them easier to ship over international borders. In this one rare case, the law really is there for your safety.

I haven't seen any of their percussion guns, either, and it could be that with a Hoyt or Whitacre barrel, they'd be fine and dandy, but with an unproofed Indian barrel, they're unsafe. I wouldn't fire one, except in a bunker with a remote control.

No proof, no bang bang.

Cheers,

Mike

[threepdr]

Mike,

I have a pdf copy of the lab report. Sorry don't have a link for it though. The lab says the barrel had bulge in the barrel about 18 inches from the breech with split running back to the breech. (I'm not a metalurgist so I'm just repeating this) After microscopic sections were looked at they concluded the barrel was made of 1100 series carbon steel as seen in most muzzleloading weapons with no evidence of inclusions that would have weakened the steel. hardness tests indicated a tensil strength of about 85,000 psi.

They could only guess on what the obstruction might have been. Extreme fouling in the bore forward of the bulge suggested that it had been fired alot without cleaning possibile causing a constriction in the barrel 18 inches forward of the chamber, through with powder could be poured, but a heavy blast would have trouble passing.

Add to this the possibility of of a double or triple charge.

As far as the antique Martinni is concerned firing modern .303 charges, I'm not sure how that relates to modern made muzzleloading reproductions.

This is the only Indian made musket that has had a failure. There have been at least two Pedersoli Besses that have failed through the years at reenactments, mainly due to overcharging.

[macvcallsign]

Pat, How Cheap is Cheap????

John, If one was to be presented to SAC to see if the Dimensions were correct and the overall quality was acceptable, would it be possible to replace the barrel with an acceptable barrel and re-submitted for approval on an individual basis? Any of these,of course, would have to be submitted to SAC for final approval.

I do not own one, in fact, I have never even seen one but am thinking it might be an idea for someone who does not have a lot of money to invest to start shooting smoothbore? Although a good SB can be had, new in the box, for under $700.00 and they do shoot very well.

Just a thought. Now I remember one of the reasons(actually 2) why I never became a Re-enactor!!

Dennis
4th Kentucky Cavalry, CSA

[John Holland]

Dennis,

The SAC would entertain the possibility of your suggestion that if the arm in question were otherwise correct, it could possibly be allowed on an individual basis with a proper replacement barrel from one of the N-SSA's approved barrel manufacturers. As you noted, everything would have to start with an examination of the base arm, with all parties understanding there are no guarantees it will meet our requirements.

John Holland
SAC