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Thread: Bringing the Lee Hardness Tester into the digital age

  1. #11
    Kevin Tinny is offline
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    Hello:

    As it relates to lead and lead alloy cast bullet age hardening:

    John Bly can walk the talk. He's my go-to person. I think we agree on the following.

    The NRA's book: CAST BULLETS, by then American Rifleman Magazine Technical Editor, Col. E. H. Harrison, USA, Ret, has two authoritative pieces on this topic.

    On its page 102 is "Lead Alloys Age-Harden" and on page 111 is a slightly corrected piece "Age-Hardening of Alloys".

    These go into useful detail. The point for us that prefer pure lead is that either of age-HARDENING or age-SOFTENING of PURE lead is insignificant for bullet and minie ball shooting requirements.

    What IS also important is in the page 111 piece:
    AGE hardening does NOT occur in lead-tin alloys, but does when ANTIMONY is present.

    SUPPLIEMENT NO. 1 to the BOOK contains a piece on page 12 entitled "FROM THE LOADING BENCH Soft Lead? A Better Way To Tell?"

    In this two pager by Kenneth L.Walters, he shares that ONLY pure lead SOLIDIFIES at 621 degrees and how to observe this with a simple dial thermometer. He emphasizes that the 621 degree solidification shows PURE, but nothing more about composition if not pure. Chemically pure lead has a BHN of 4 and so-called "pure" plumbers lead can be 5BHN, either of which is fine for those wanting "shootable" PURE.

    When these books were assembled, they were the best and most technically correct PRACTICAL guide for cast bullet shooters. Guru lead metallurgists, such as Dennis Marshall, collaborated with the NRA and also the CAST BULLET ASSOCIATION.

    Regards,

    Kevin Tinny

    Edited for punctuation. Kevin
    Last edited by Kevin Tinny; 02-16-2019 at 04:50 PM.

  2. #12
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    So the take away is:. 2-3 weeks if antimony.

    Reason asked. I worked up a load for a Maynard and achieved great groups. Ammo used had been cast and sat for several weeks before using. Cast more rounds and shot them 2 days later and they were literally all over the target.

    Will retest with those same rounds now that they have sat much longer...
    Mike 'Bootsie' Bodner
    Palmetto Sharpshooter's, Commander
    9996V

  3. #13
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    Mike if you get in a jam and know your going to have to shoot freshly cast alloy bullets and cant wait for them to age harden you can always quench them in water right out of the mold. You will of course have to test them to make sure they haven't hardened past your regular aged bullets. Your mileage may vary.
    Kurt

  4. #14
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    I had heard about the quenching approach and tried it out. It DID result in harder bullets earlier, but not sufficiently hard for that particular carbine (with very shallow grooves). BUT it shot a heck of alot better than 'fresh' non-aged bullets.

    I re-tried bullets that had performed terribly (the day after casting) and now that 2+ weeks have passsed, they shot like gang-busters....

    The truly ironic part about this whole investigation: Pre-retirement, casting would be done one day and many days or weeks later, the bullets would be shot. Now that I have time and my own shooting range, I cast one day and go shoot the next. Looks like I need to be WAY more patient, at least when it comes to hard-cast bullets.... LOL

    BTW: This probably explains why my Henry stopped hitting the paper 2 years ago... I was re-working up a tighter load and after using my 'old' bullets, the new ones literally wouldn't even hit the paper at 100 yds. No matter what I did with the casting, they just came out too soft and wouldn't hit. I can't wait for the weather to clear and re-try those old bullets again and get back into the Henry Matches!!

    -Boots
    Mike 'Bootsie' Bodner
    Palmetto Sharpshooter's, Commander
    9996V

  5. #15
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    Cast from clip on wheel weights and do the water quenching. They will be WAY hard. Seems like 14-16 BHN, but don't hold me to that. I've done this for 30 caliber bullets and shoot them at 1800-2000 fps. They turn to dust when hitting my bullet trap. I seriously doubt you need them THAT hard, but I say it to show what CAN be done. Of course, you can mix pure lead in with the wheel weights and still water quench them and they will be softer than 100% wheel weights. Play around with the mixture until you get the hardness you desire. It's the antimony that does the quench hardening. Wheel weights have the antimony in them. Contrary to popular belief, you'd be hard pressed to find even a trace of tin in today's wheel weights. Costs too much.

  6. #16
    bobanderson is offline
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    When I first started shooting BPCRS, a friend suggested I quench from the mould to increase hardness and also the diameter of my bullets. This worked well until a metallurgist friend told me that quenching is a temporary effect and that the bullets will return to their original state over a short time.

    This thread suggests that bullets "age harden" which is completely new to me. Is it possible that lead has an "at rest" (for lack of a better term) Rockwell value and the casting pouring and quenching simply moves the needle temporarily? As far as age hardening improving accuracy, I know that old bullets that have lost their "shine" shoot better. Does tarnish from storage give you a slightly tighter fit?
    Bob Anderson
    Ordnance Sergeant
    Company C, 1st Michigan Volunteer Infantry
    Small Arms Committee

    "I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a hand on.
    I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them."
    - John Wayne in "The Shootist", 1976

  7. #17
    John Bly is offline
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    Bob, if you read it again you will see that lead/tin bullets age soften while lead/antimony bullets age harden. Most of us cast bullets in the colder months and shoot them in the warmer months so our bullets have stabilized to whatever they will be.

  8. #18
    bobanderson is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Bly View Post
    Bob, if you read it again...
    I really enjoy these posts that combine combine science along with real world shooter's experiences, so I follow them until they reach their logical end. I DIDN'T re-read the whole thread before my last post.

    Thanks for squaring me away, John.
    Bob Anderson
    Ordnance Sergeant
    Company C, 1st Michigan Volunteer Infantry
    Small Arms Committee

    "I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a hand on.
    I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them."
    - John Wayne in "The Shootist", 1976

  9. #19
    Jim Barber is offline
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    An interesting aside that my dad pointed out to me a few years ago: when you perform the "scientific" test of trying to crush (or at least oval-ize) the base of a Minie to determine whether it's soft enough, you'll find it's much harder to squash a Minie that's been through the sizer than a fresh-cast, unsized bullet. Try it some time. Curious.

    Cheers
    Jim B.
    Grove City, OH

  10. #20
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    I'm gonna have to try that. To keep things scientific, I think I will use my Lee Hardness Tester and maybe put a piece of steel between it and the bullet so it is not a point load, but will put the same force on both bullets. It will be this weekend before I would have a chance to do it and will also have to see if I have any unsized minies, so don't hold your breath on seeing my results, but it is an experiment I'd like to do.

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