Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 21 to 28 of 28

Thread: What Is Your Favorite Brand of Black Powder and Why?

  1. #21
    Kevin Tinny is offline
    Team:
    Tammany Regiment, 42nd New York
    Member
    13667
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    North Florida
    Posts
    573
    Region:
    New England - New York, Connecticut, New Jersey and Massachusetts
    Hi, Bob:

    Thanks for your comments.

    The Lyman "manual" was edited by Ken and I gave mine away. Sorry.
    It was a large format, 3/4" thick, 12" X 14" or so, not the usual Lyman manual size.
    Have looked all over for one, but it is the one with Minie ballistics in the back.
    Both chrono results and some "spark" photo's were included.
    One showed the expanded skirt a couple inches beyond the muzzle.

    There are lots of UTUBE slo-mo vid's showing the muzzle of center-fire rifles with a puff of smoke preceeding the bullet's exit. Same for shotshells.

    Peters Ctg Co published a small booklet in the 1930's full of spark photo's showing shot charges leaving to muzzle. All had gasses in front of the charge.

    Dr. Oehler said it was a "pressure wave", not particulates from unburned powder that could trigger the start "Skyscreen". I think OUR relatively slow bullets are involved.

    Again, it is from muzzle closeness. I used a 1\8" thick plywood 12" square sheet with 4" round hole located a foot in front of the first screen. Careful, careful. No one shot through it but me. Have seen several nice screens of others perforated by range rats not aligning correctly.

    Trying to chrono m-l shotgun loads was a challenge because of not only that pressure wave, but also the erratic sensing of pellets by the screens. Had to use an induction coil to sense the main body of the charge vs. leading pellets or stray ones.

    Might Google spark photographs of bullets.

    Dr. Oehler and I spoke about five years ago. He may still be around. Very nice fellow.

    Regardless, the shield solves the problem.

    Bullet overstabilization, tipping at muzzle exit and the "Magnus" effect should get your brain going. Haha. Love.

    Kevin

  2. #22
    Charlie Hahn is offline
    Team:
    13th Confederate Infantry
    Member
    0829V
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Berlin, MD
    Posts
    642
    Region:
    Potomac - Virginia, Maryland and Delaware
    Regarding items that exit the barrel. The projectile sees a set back force when the powder burns in-bore. As the projectile leaves the muzzle the gun gases exit at several thousand feet per second, and go past the projectile this is referred to as set forward, or for a few milliseconds the projectile fly's backward as these gasses and un-burned particles go past the bullet. This is where a crown needs to be perpendicular to the center line of the barrel or tipping will happen. Once the gases slow, the projectile slams into the air and has another chance to veer. In our case we have two other issues, the cavity, and the lead will expand or "flechette". If the skirt is weak, it can also rupture and plays a part in the production of those wayward shots we all just can't explain.

  3. #23
    John Bly is offline
    Team:
    5th Virginia Volunteer Infantry
    Member
    5109V
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Stephens City, VA
    Posts
    853
    Region:
    Potomac - Virginia, Maryland and Delaware
    Mann in his experiments used a device he called the "whizzer". It was a round sheet of paper attached to a ring which was rotated at high speed in front of the muzzle when a shot was fired. The theory was that any ejecta in front of the bullet would imprint the paper before the bullet pierced the paper. I don't recall if his experiments proved anything. This was way before high speed cameras. He was using the highest technology available at the time. His work on the bullet's flight is still widely respected today.

  4. #24
    bobanderson is offline
    Team:
    1st Michigan Infantry
    Member
    12291
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Howell, MI
    Posts
    831
    Region:
    Northwest Territory - Michigan, Ohio and Indiana
    Quote Originally Posted by John Bly View Post
    His work on the bullet's flight is still widely respected today.
    Got my copy years ago when the NRA offered their Firearms Classics Library. (Read all of them cover to cover, btw.)

    Every cast bullet shooter should read his research to find the cause of flyers in a group.

    Always wanted to build a box filled with oiled sawdust to catch bullets.
    Bob Anderson
    Ordnance Sergeant
    Company C, 1st Michigan Volunteer Infantry
    Small Arms Committee

    "I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a hand on.
    I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them."
    - John Wayne in "The Shootist", 1976

  5. #25
    Kevin Tinny is offline
    Team:
    Tammany Regiment, 42nd New York
    Member
    13667
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    North Florida
    Posts
    573
    Region:
    New England - New York, Connecticut, New Jersey and Massachusetts
    Hi:

    Couple more things, please:

    Old notes reflect the Lyman book that Ramage edited was written by Ted Almgren and Wm. McDonald. The expanded skirt "shadow-graph" was of Lyman 575213 NEW Style at a high velocity. Another at around 800fps had no expansion. Measuring the DIAMETERS of holes in thin target paper will disclose an enlarged skirt. Probably obvious, but the skirt expansion occurs AFTER the minie exits the confinement of the bore. That means there IS STILL considerable pressure at the muzzle. I have had a 42" custom m-loading shotgun test barrel from a very reliable maker rip itself open 4" back from the muzzle. Yes, too thin, but it wouldn't have happened without sufficient pressure THERE.

    My earlier post was updated to include a bit more detail on the lot-to-lot variation/strength tolerance within a brand and granulation. GOI and GOEX ran the previous DuPont "Belin" BP plant, in Moosic, PA. Before GOI got it, the DuPont production engineer told me the strength tolerance was 6% - 7%. Mr. Fahringer shared the same 6% - 7% figure and added that GOEX ran the same ingred's, process and tolerance because 75% of production was for military use.

    Oiled sawdust boxes will disclose LOTS of useful info.
    But, the sawdust must be of the rougher, coarser SAWMILL granulation, not the finer stuff from a table saw. Mix the sawmill stuff with the least possible 30 wgt reclaimed motor oil and small rake in a kid's 12" X 72" play pool. Too much oil diminishes the fluffyness. Boxes can be plywood, 18" square and about 7 FEET long with a hinged lid.

    Make TWO that overlap at one end and BOLT/FIT TOGETHER because it is EASY to have 9 FEET of penetration! Be SAFE! I PLACED THEM ON TWO, END-TO-END, CAREFULLY LEVELED HEAVY PICNIC TABLES. Align shots EXTRA WELL because the bullet path meanders a little in the sawdust and a bullet CAN END UP RUBBING ON THE INSIDE. Also, I HAVE HAD BP 1250fps, cast 40 cal bullets penetrate NINE FEET and center punch a refrig in my garage! That prompted me to build the second box.

    Locating lead slugs can be time consuming, even when you know the approx penetration.
    I placed sheets of thin shirtboard every foot to pull out for penetration gauging. These boxes work for soft and alloy lead BULLETS up to around 1400 fps, but pure lead balls at up to 2500fps look like they were smashed flat on the leading side.

    With bullets, gas cutting shows well, as does nose setback from too soft an alloy.
    Never tried minies for skirt evaluation. Was working with slug guns then. I could take (PROPERLY FITTING, PAPER PATCHED) recovered slugs and reshoot them on paper and they would go into the group shot with normal ones. Seemed the rifling imprint didn't matter out to 300.

    One other fascinating thing in MANN is the bullet stripping stuff, which the NRA Technical Staff later reproved for lead bullets at below 30,000PSI in a Dec, 1957 AMERICAN RIFLEMAN article "Is Jumping The Rifling Likely?" VERY DIFFICULT TO GET BULLETS TO STRIP!

    The answers are IN THE BOOKS. There are several members that know ALL this stuff and MORE from their Gomment work. Love.

    Kevin
    Last edited by Kevin Tinny; 12-08-2018 at 11:51 AM.

  6. #26
    hobbler is offline
    Team:
    Visitor (non-N-SSA Member)
    Member
    NA
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    355
    Region:
    Visitor
    Jack's Battle Powder because it goes bang real good and makes lots of smoke and I hit what I'm shooting at.
    And there's not any of that worrying around either about which F grade to put in the pan.
    Oh and yeah, it has a delicate balanced bouquet.

  7. #27
    Kevin Tinny is offline
    Team:
    Tammany Regiment, 42nd New York
    Member
    13667
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    North Florida
    Posts
    573
    Region:
    New England - New York, Connecticut, New Jersey and Massachusetts
    Hello:

    YA GOTTA WATCH THIS! Happy New Year.

    Surfing GOOGLE during the last couple days for European history stuff turned up a UTUBE video by
    "SMARTER EVERY DAY" entitled: "CANNON SHOCK WAVES ..... ".

    This AMAZING video may be well known to our artillery teams, but was new to me.

    THE "SMARTER" fellow presents VERY REVEALING, COLOR, hyper-frame speed, SLO-MO "VISION RESEARCH" camera footage of several BLACK POWDER CANNON firing either ball or elongated bullet.

    He indicated that he was looking into "pressure waves". Hmmm ..... . He sure had my attention.

    About eight minutes (be patient) into the thirteen minute vid, is a software enhanced ("offset one frame mode"?) view of cannon muzzles and the first few feet beyond them during firing.

    This footage clearly and repeatedly shows:

    VISIBLY large amounts of solid black EJECTA, then billowing white GAS, next red/yellow FLASH leaving the bore BEFORE THE VISIBLE PROJECTILE.

    THEN, in the offset mode footage, THE PRESSURE WAVE (THAT CAN TRIGGER CHRONOGRAPH START SCREENS) BEING WELL AHEAD OF ALL OF THE PROJECTILES AND EJECTA.

    LATER, how MUCH the wooden carriages flex during firing.

    "Smarter" also comments about the shape of the pressure wave.

    This video is of BLACK POWDER VELOCITY projectiles from relatively long, in terms of "caliber" barrels.
    It seems applicable to our carbines and rifles.

    Technology is our friend.

    Sorry, but I prefer not to post "links". I never open them and would not expect others to, either, Thanks.

    Respectfully,
    Kevin Tinny
    Last edited by Kevin Tinny; 12-26-2018 at 08:13 AM.

  8. #28
    Kevin Tinny is offline
    Team:
    Tammany Regiment, 42nd New York
    Member
    13667
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    North Florida
    Posts
    573
    Region:
    New England - New York, Connecticut, New Jersey and Massachusetts
    Hello, Eggman:

    Was not inferring my "discovery". Rather that when evaluating powder brand velocity with a chrono, most instructions do not include the need for a blast shield. The shield helps.

    Some contend that there is nothing "ahead" of the projectile to otherwise trigger the chrono.
    The UTUBE vid shows there is. Your 20,000 fps makes it clearer.
    l guess that's also why the people in movies outrunning blast waves are REALLY FAST! Tx.

    As for expanding skirts, it was that the expanded skirt IN the bore, enlarges after exit to more than bore diameter depending on skirt thickness and pressure level.

    Some minie skirt shadow graphs in the Lyman manual were not enlarged and some were.

    Respectfully,
    Kevin

Similar Threads

  1. Lyman #55 powder measure vs. Classic Black Powder measure?
    By Maillemaker in forum Shooting Techs, Tips, & Tricks
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 04-28-2013, 05:51 PM
  2. Favorite Powder Measure?
    By Greg Ogdan, 11444 in forum Shooting Techs, Tips, & Tricks
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 10-28-2010, 09:14 AM
  3. New to Black Powder
    By mb3 in forum Shooting Techs, Tips, & Tricks
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 08-25-2010, 10:38 PM
  4. black powder for cartridges...
    By William H. Shuey in forum Shooting Techs, Tips, & Tricks
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 05-19-2010, 11:40 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •