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Thread: Getting Started With Cavalry Carbines...

  1. #21
    samuel990 is offline
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    Jim, I also looked at Maynards. I guess there are just so many different carbines, someone hadn't gotten to it yet! I am personally surprised no one has suggested a Sharps yet... They were they most issued carbine for a reason I'm guessing! And about shooting paper cartridges- I am going to attempt to roll some for my Dreyse Fusiliers Rifle this week while I'm home... If I can get it to shoot I will definitely show you guys a video! The Dreyse might have been on a different continent, but it fought for the same years some of these carbines did!

  2. #22
    samuel990 is offline
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    mgmradio,
    I was thinking about doing the same thing if I went with the Starr-having a mold made after an original bullet. There seems to be no molds available for the Starr like there are for other carbines. How does she shoot? I read the Starr was one of the most accurate of the carbines.

  3. #23
    samuel990 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Cobb 1723V View Post
    The Civil War Ballard carbines are usually less pricey. Lots were sold by a dealer in Cincinnati, Ohio named Kittridge & Co. and so marked. Used by mostly western cavalry troops like Ohio and Kentucky.
    I keep this in mind, the Ballard is a nice looking rifle. I've got to admit, the Gwyn and Campbell is an ugly little guy... Of course it's from Ohio!

  4. #24
    Dave Fox is offline
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    Comrade MGMRADIO has the right of it regarding the Starr. It has a strong action of ingenious design and received a bad rap during the war, I believe chiefly because in the field troopers armed with Starrs were often issued Sharps cartridges, cartridges which were too short containing undersized bullets, resulting in misfires and inaccuracy. A question I've never seen answered is: why, entering into contracts, the government didn't insist on a commonality of ammunition...Starrs could easily have been chambered and bored for Sharps ammo. Schiffers in his "Civil War Carbines, Myth Vs. Reality" persisted in testing the Starr w/o lubeing the bullets, then failed it due to inaccuracy and bore fouling. Duh.

    Seeking a shootable Starr, important to me was the sharpness of the bore, and condition of the narrow sealing lip on the face of the breechblock (see photo attached). As to the latter, a corroded, chipped lip I'm told can be repaired with J-B Weld. It appears to me that many Starrs have loose breechblocks, results perhaps of being flogged with maximum powder charges in capacious chambers. Cartridge making for the Starr is much like that for the Gwyn and Campbell. A tube of curling paper is formed of slightly greater diameter than the bullet and trimmed to a length of 1.4 inch. As the flash comes through the tail of the cartridge, I seat a piece of tissue paper there. I've found the .56 calibre mould I had for my Burnside seems a happy choice for the Starr. This bullet is lubed with SPG and seated over 45 grains of FFFg topped with a 1.9 cc measure of Cream of wheat filler. This reduced charge seems about right for my informal shooting. Again, this paper doesn't burn entirely and I rake out spent cartridge paper with a wire hook. With a good sealing lip and tight breechblock fit, my Starr is more gas-tight than my Sharps. Accuracy is acceptable and cleaning, due to the two-part breech block, is a tad involved. The whole impression is of a serious weapon for adults.

    Why not a Sharps or Maynard? Both are reproduced, both are common. Too common. Take the road less traveled!
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    Last edited by Dave Fox; 11-16-2018 at 09:13 PM.

  5. #25
    Dave Fox is offline
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    Jim, re: ammunition commonality in patent CW carbines, I was thinking more of early war, initial contracts of the paper/linen cartridge weapons.

  6. #26
    mgmradio is offline
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    Samual,
    The Starr is very accurate and has very minimal gas leakage as long as you keep the sealing ring clean. The camming action of the breach makes a tight seal.
    In the Army trials it out performed the Sharps. The problems that occurred in the field were caused by an ordinance officers mistake thinking the Starr and the Sharps cartridges were interchangeable because they looked similar. The Sharps cartridges were substantially smaller in diameter, causing the round to slide to far into the barrel leaving a gap of an inch or more between the flash hole and the base of the cartridge. This lead to misfires. The troops using the correct ammo did not have these problems.
    The Original Starr bullets are a smooth bullet with one raised ring at the base. The base ring is .555-.560" the smooth part of the bullet is actually bore riding. The original bullets were lubed with bees wax , and that's what I use.
    The original style bullet is very accurate and better than 9 of 10 linen or tube cartridges exit the barrel. The over sized Sharps bullets with tubes are as accurate and easier to setup and most of the tubes exit the barrel also. It is also easier to lube the Ringtails with bees wax as you can hold the tail when dipping.
    To lube the bullets with bees wax, I fires heat the wax to around 175 deg. I also heat the bullets to 150-160 deg. Then dip the bullet in the wax and pull it out and shake it. This leaves a nice thin coat of wax and if not sufficient can be repeated. If you don't heat the bullet you will end up with a very thick coat of wax and will need to remove a lot of it.

  7. #27
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    My wife has both an original Model 1859 Sharps and a Starr. She skirmishes primarily with the Sharps, but has used the Starr. We use Moose Moulds ringtail bullets in both. .544 in the Sharps and .557 in the Starr. I've tried the cardboard tubes in both. They work "OK" in the Sharps. In the Starr, the tube is left and must be extracted before reloading. On occasion, there have been pieces left in the Sharps, so we kinda abandoned that idea and stuck with paper cartridges. We only use hair curler paper in our cartridges. We roll a whole, untrimmed, un-nitrated, hair curler paper from the narrow end around a mandrel just a hair larger than the tail on the ringtail bullet, using a glue stick to capture the end of the roll. We slide it about 1/4" off the end of the mandrel and using the glue stick again, put a bit of glue on the tail of the ringtail bullet. We stick that down inside the open end of the rolled paper and stick it to the bullet with our fingers and withdraw it from the mandrel. Next we stand it up in the corner hole of a modern plastic cartridge reloading tray. We cut pieces of dental floss about 6-8 inches long and tie one around the paper in the recess of the ringtail and snip off the excess with a pair of scissors. We then put in the powder from the open rear of the cartridge, then twist shut. I will move the finished cartridge back in the loading tray and start on the next one in that corner hole, the corner hole lending itself better to having room the tie the dental floss on.

    Upon loading in the sharps, the twisted tail of the cartridge is cut off. Just the tail, though, not the whole butt end of it like cutting the end off a cigar. I'm sure at this point, what little twist remains tends to open up exposing powder, but that is not really needed. More on that later. when the gun is fired, the entire cartridge is consumed. Nothing left. No pieces of paper or cardboard to have to fish out. It's ready for the next round.

    When we first got her Starr, we experimented with cardboard tubes and twisted tail rounds just like described above. Like I said before, the cardboard tube remained in its entirety and had to be extracted. With the twisted tail Sharps style cartridges, there was nothing to cut them off, so we just folded that tail across the bottom of the cartridge and closed the breech. the twisted tail would almost always still be in there stuck to the breech block and had to picked off. Next, I tried cutting the twisted tail off, leaving only the bare minimum of twist on the cartridge. Then I put a single drop of super glue on that tiny bit of remaining twist to keep it shut. That worked wonderfully. Now, just like the Sharps, nothing left of the cartridge when opening the breech of the Starr.

    Just my opinion....This is easier than the cardboard tube or rolling a paper tube that must have a second piece of a different type paper glued in the end. And for us, at least, worked better, although there are plenty of others that seem to have no problem with the tubes. We usually do this as a team. She will roll the cartridges and glue in the bullets. I will tie the dental floss and fill and close the cartridge.

    Thanks to Southron Sr. for teaching me this method. It may not be for everybody, but it works for us. Hopefully, others will find it helpful, as well.

  8. #28
    samuel990 is offline
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    Hey, so I think I've decided to go with a Burnside Carbine. I understand they can take some work in making a load, but I'm ok with that. Burnsides are the rifles that drew me to this at first, so I think I'll start out with one of those. Also, until I get my Dreyse all figured out, I'm limiting myself to one paper cartridge rifle. So does anyone have any suggestions for molds? I see Old West Bullet molds has a mold, is it any good? They make some quality molds in my experience. Also, has anyone seen any good ones for sale lately? I saw there was one on the trader here. Would that be good to start out with?

  9. #29
    bobanderson is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by samuel990 View Post
    Hey, so I think I've decided to go with a Burnside Carbine. I understand they can take some work in making a load, but I'm ok with that. Burnsides are the rifles that drew me to this at first, so I think I'll start out with one of those.

    Also, has anyone seen any good ones for sale lately?
    Don't think you'll find anything much nicer than this one - https://www.n-ssa.net/vbforum/showth...light=Burnside
    Bob Anderson
    Ordnance Sergeant
    Company C, 1st Michigan Volunteer Infantry
    Small Arms Committee

    "I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a hand on.
    I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them."
    - John Wayne in "The Shootist", 1976

  10. #30
    samuel990 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobanderson View Post
    Don't think you'll find anything much nicer than this one - https://www.n-ssa.net/vbforum/showth...light=Burnside
    That is the one I am considering.

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