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Thread: Confusing Rule

  1. #1
    Southron Sr. is offline
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    Confusing Rule

    The N-SSA rule states that combustible cartridges cannot be used in muzzleloading arms.

    So are combustible cartridges illegal to be used in percussion revolvers?

    Percussion revolvers are not "muzzleloaders" as they are "cylinder"(or chamber) loaders.

    Seems to me, using combustible cartridges in percussion revolvers would be 100% safe.

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    Jim Barber is offline
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    At risk of diving too deep into technical detail, my understanding is that a typical percussion revolver IS a "muzzleloader" since the charge and projectile are loaded from the muzzle end, not the breech. Suggesting that loading from the muzzle-end of a cylinder, rather than the breech end of it, makes it a 3rd type of gun (something between a muzzleloading gun and a breechloader) is pretty heavy on semantics and suggestion that there exists some "other type" than ones which stuff from the front or the back. It loads from the middle? Kind of a Buddhist thing, like there's "yes" and "no" and then a 3rd thing which defies expression, but is where the truth lies if one looks not too hard for it. I will defer to Robert Pirsig for details of this theory.

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    Wayne Shaw, 1985V is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southron Sr. View Post
    The N-SSA rule states that combustible cartridges cannot be used in muzzleloading arms.

    So are combustible cartridges illegal to be used in percussion revolvers?

    Percussion revolvers are not "muzzleloaders" as they are "cylinder"(or chamber) loaders.

    Seems to me, using combustible cartridges in percussion revolvers would be 100% safe.
    Southron Sr Let me see if I can help you with this. Since this has come up before over the years and being on the BOD or being at the meetings I know that the N-SSA has always looked at combustible cartridges will not be used in any of our firearms.( revolvers included)
    As the National IG I can assure you that the Rule should be corrected to clean up that Grey area. It will be in the Rules changes submitted for the August BOD meeting to do just that.
    In the mean time and from the IG's stand point the use of combustible cartridges are not allowed!

    Wayne Shaw National Inspector General 1985V SAC

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    efritz is offline
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    What is def. of a combustible cartridge
    When in doubt, mumble, when in trouble, delegate.

  5. #5
    MR. GADGET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Shaw, 1985V View Post
    In the mean time and from the IG's stand point the use of combustible cartridges are not allowed!

    Wayne Shaw



    So we can not use any paper in a sharps?
    Last edited by MR. GADGET; 03-29-2018 at 08:19 AM.
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  6. #6
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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_cartridge


    The original worry was cook-offs and fires when conditions were super dry which has happened before.
    Last edited by RaiderANV; 03-29-2018 at 08:21 AM.
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    One of the things I wish to tackle this year is proposing a rule change that explicitly allows the use of US 1855 and US 1862 expanding ball cartridges. With the US expanding ball cartridge, no part of the paper cartridge was or is put in the barrel - it is merely a paper envelope for holding the powder and the bullet, just like our plastic tubes are today. These cartridges were used in the Traditional Musket Matches held at the Nationals for a brief time, and I understand from postings that some people are using them in regional skirmishes also, though by my reading of the current rules this is of dubious permissibility, depending on how you interpret "cardboard". The 1855 cartridge has an internal powder chamber made of stiffer "rocket paper" that one might interpret to be "card stock". I think this rule change should be easy to achieve since nothing is changing with regards to what is being loaded into firearms. You can see how to make them here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cB3g6inwu8o

    If I can get that measure passed, the next thing I would like to take up is the option to use cartridges of the style of the British Enfield. This style of cartridge the Confederacy also fitfully undertook to settle on as its standard-issue cartridge design, finally adopting it as their only cartridge design in February of 1864, though the order was rescinded a short time later. This style of cartridge integrates the bullet with the outer paper wraper of the bullet, resulting in a paper-patched bullet being loaded into the firearm. Unlike the British, who used a boxwood, and later a clay-fired plug, the Confederacy did not use a plug in the base of the bullet, which is convenient for us since N-SSA rules prohibit any kind of multi-part ammunition. From experience, I feel it's unlikely that the plug would ever separate from the bullet during flight, but it is nice to know that when making Confederate copies of British Enfield ammunition it is not required.

    You can see how to make these here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzA9aXEyT-c

    With regards to revolvers, I have often thought that self-contained cartridges would greatly speed up the loading time and the uniformity of loads, which could be carefully measured out at home rather than in the field under time pressure.

    I don't think there is any real risk of cook-offs with revolvers since the time between discharging all cylinders and re-loading them is usually several minutes, at least. However, I think the risk could be mitigated by allowing the use of foil cartridges, which were used during the American Civil War. Of course, like artillery, the foil remnants will have to be fished out of the chambers after every firing with a worm of some kind, but this would be easily done. It would might necessitate the pricking of each foil cartridge through the percussion cone prior to firing, and if forgotten or ill-done could result in a fouled weapon on the line, so there is that.

    Personally I think combustible cartridges for revolver would be perfectly safe. Has anyone ever seen or heard of a cook-off in a revolver from any kind of loading?

    Steve
    Last edited by Maillemaker; 03-29-2018 at 10:21 AM.

  8. #8
    MR. GADGET's Avatar
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    Being we are talking about rules that are confusing. ..

    20.7.3 General rules SSP
    J. SB firearms....... use of patch filler wads is prohibited.


    22.1 Ammo
    C single shot pistol may include filler such as COW or Wads


    So what rule trumps what?

    I remember the fussing about using COW or wads.

    Rules say it us not legal yet legal under ammo section.?

    In that fussing both were correct. Rule says you can but cant use it.......
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  9. #9
    MR. GADGET's Avatar
    MR. GADGET is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maillemaker View Post

    Personally I think combustible cartridges for revolver would be perfectly safe. Has anyone ever seen or heard of a cook-off in a revolver from any kind of loading?

    Steve
    Yes had a friend that watched it first hand also several happened at cowboy action shoots.


    Sorry just looked it over again those were chain fire not cookoff.
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    Steve

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