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Thread: Two-piece Whitworth die?

  1. #1
    OregonBill is offline
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    Two-piece Whitworth die?

    Speaking of Whitworths, I managed to buy one of the last Parker Hales that Navy Arms had in inventory, probably 15-20 years ago, and with it I was able to purchase a two-piece hex die. The way this worked was that you cast a standard .458 Lyman slug, then put this slug between the two halves of the die and squeezed it in a bench vise. Does anyone else remember this "clam shell" die? Anyone have a photo?

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    bobanderson is offline
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    The Whitworth swaging die is still available from Dixie Gun Works - $139.95.

    https://www.dixiegunworks.com/produc...oducts_id=8084
    Bob Anderson
    Ordnance Sergeant
    Company C, 1st Michigan Volunteer Infantry
    Small Arms Committee

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    OregonBill is offline
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    I'll be darned. There it is. Thanks Bob!

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    Quote Originally Posted by OregonBill View Post
    I'll be darned. There it is. Thanks Bob!
    If you are looking to purchase one , I have one that I will sell for $100.
    Fletcher Pastore
    Cockade Rifles

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    MR. GADGET's Avatar
    MR. GADGET is offline Moderator
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    I remember seeing and had in hand a push type one pc die.
    If I remember they make it from a section of barrel and add a cone to the face to start the bullet and start the forming.

    They do the same for smokeless muzzleloaders now by using a cut from the end of the barrel and pre rifle the bullets to fit the barrel.

    Somewhat like we do the cannon rounds now when you pre rifle them.
    MR. GADGET
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    OregonBill is offline
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    Fletcher, I am not currently in possession of a Whitworth. You might well find a buyer once the new Pedersoli comes to market.

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    bobanderson is offline
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    Not to dump on a potential sale (but this is the Small Arms board) my friend and I used our trips to BPCR matches to shoot our Volunteer and Whitworth rifles at the 500 meter ram silhouettes.
    My impression was the Whitworth was superior to the Volunteer by a slight margin, as far as goups on the animal went.
    Interestingly, we also shot quite a few rounds of swaged and as cast bullets in the Whitworth to see if a hexagon bolt shot better than a round one. Our results, unscientific as they were, showed the extra step wasn't really necessary. It seemed like a soft lead bullet bumped up quite nicely to fill the hex rifling and accuracy was about the same. We shot pretty hefty charges so maybe the swaged bullet would be superior with lighter charges for use at 100 yards and less.
    Bob Anderson
    Ordnance Sergeant
    Company C, 1st Michigan Volunteer Infantry
    Small Arms Committee

    "I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a hand on.
    I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them."
    - John Wayne in "The Shootist", 1976

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    OregonBill is offline
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    Bob, that was my experience as well.

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    You might not even need to bother buying a Whitworth? The Whitworth was not the only small-bore rifle available. In other preliminary trials held at Witton (this from an article in The Argus, August 9, 1860, Melbourne), intimates:

    The first 50 rounds were fired from an Enfield musket of .453 bore, rifled with five ordinary grooves, with one complete turn in 20 inches, the barrel being 39 inches long, and the same weight as the Enfield rifle now in the hands of our troops. The range was 500 yards, the weight of the powder 2.5 drachms, and the weight of bullet 530 grains. The whole of the bullets were fired into a radius of 9 inches, decimal 4. A second gun, of the same case and facility as at the first, the result being 9 inches, decimal 60. In the 10 last shots from this gun there were several bull’s-eyes. A third gun was then shot, at the same distance, with barrel 32 inches long, the result of which was a radius of 10 inches.

    We latterly find the very same Enfield small-bore rifles in use in the “all comers” matches during the annual meetings at Wimbledon in 1861 and 1862, when figures of merit were reported anent one small-bore Enfield, attaining an accuracy very closely matching the Whitworth, having its mean deviation of 0.41-ft at 300 yards; 0.70-ft at 500 yards; 1.50-ft at 800 yards; 2.11-ft at 1000 yards; and 3.85-ft at 1200 yards.


    Use of the Whitworth in the Queen’s prize of 1860 was merely attained by the taking by lots. It was rather the gun-maker selection for 1861 when it was first proposed to “Invite the gun-makers of the United Kingdom to a competition with rifles of a minimum bore of .451 and a maximum weight of 9 1/2 lb., the pull of trigger not being less than 3 lb.” The competition was held at the Musketry School at Hythe in February 1861. Each competitor was required to furnish six rifles of the same description and quality. The rifles were fired from a fixed mechanical rest, and the one that gave the best figure of merit was selected as the description of the rifle with which the Queen’s prize, together with the gold medal of the association, was to be competed for (during the annual meeting of 1861), subject to the condition of the manufacturer undertaking to supply the number of rifles required at time specified, and of their being in every respect equal to the one chosen.
    First Cousin (7 times removed) to Brigadier General Stand Watie (1806-1871), CSA
    1st Cherokee Mounted Rifles | Principal Chief of the Cherokee Nation 1862-66

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    bobanderson is offline
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    Now you're testing my memory, guys.

    It might be time for John Holland to weigh in and set us straight, but I think I remember that the Volunteer rifles were developed to create a small bore rifle version of the current military issue, aka the Enfields, for use in civilian practice. The specs called for a .451 bore and Alexander Henry rifling.
    When I had my Volunteer rifle I was able to lay it side by side with my two band Enfield. Granted thy were both repros, but the similarities were definitely there.

    Again, I sold it because there were no long range matches here in Michigan that I could compete in. If the N-SSA were to create a match in Virginia during the Nationals week, I'd get another one or maybe a Whitworth. There is nothing quite like laying on your belly and hitting a knockdown target at 500 meters (that's 547 yards).
    Bob Anderson
    Ordnance Sergeant
    Company C, 1st Michigan Volunteer Infantry
    Small Arms Committee

    "I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a hand on.
    I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them."
    - John Wayne in "The Shootist", 1976

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