What have I got here?

[mpapajoffre]

Hello All, I am a new member to this forum and am excited to become a NSSA member in the near future.
About 4 yrs ago, I was living in the Pacific Northwest and would come to VA every fall to visit my adult sons for deer season. (They both live in the Culpeper, VA area). I ordered a skirmishing musket from James River Armoury to be delivered to VA for my use during black powder deer season. I was told by James River that they were going out of the Civil War repros business, and they would sell me the last musket they had. What I received was this: a two band CS rifled musket with a 33" relined barrel with 7 lands and grooves and a bore dia of .577", measured by plug gage. Obviously the barrel has been relined, but by who? I assume it was by Mr Hoyt, but from reading on this forum I learned that if it was a Hoyt re-line, it would have the rifling twist and bore dia stamped on the underside of the barrel, mine does not. The musket came with a large front sight blank soldered on the barrel, for filing the zero in later.
What I'd like to know about this musket is this:
1) What brand of musket JRA used to have their muskets constructed on? Armisport or EuroArms?
2) Who did JRA's barrel re-lines, and what is the probable rifling twist?
3) Can someone recommend a bullet/powder charge combination for this rifle?

!5 years ago I owned a Euroarms 2 band Enfield musket that would shoot 4"-5" groups at 100 yards with a Lyman 510 grain minie ball lubed in the base and grooves with SPG wax, and a powder charge of 80-90 grns of Goex 2F. I tried this load with my new JRA musket and it grouped like a shotgun. I reduced the charge of 2F down to 60 grns in the JRA and still got poor results. I gaged my barrel on the JRA and it measured .577". I'm using the same Lyman 510 grn minie ball sized to .576", but I have only been using bore butter for the bullet lube as I load them.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you

[Lou Lou Lou]

Welcome!

I do not know what you have, but suggest you reduce the powder charge further. Skirmishing loads start around 35 grains and go up to the mid 50's. The gun will tell you what it likes. The bullet lube combo seems ok.

You should hear from some VA folks soon about joining. Good Luck

[ian45662]

Is your lead dead soft? Where did you get the lead? Also I would try 3F and see where that gets you. Most people I think are shooting 3F out of their rifle muskets

[mpapajoffre]

Is your lead dead soft? Where did you get the lead? Also I would try 3F and see where that gets you. Most people I think are shooting 3F out of their rifle muskets
Im not sure about the 100% lead or where I purchased the bullets. They came in a square brown box, approx. 2"x4", with thick carboard dividers in them, they are packed 50 rnds to a box.
I have plenty of powder available, so I am going to try 3F today, and lube the bullets with SPG.

[ian45662]

Try something in 40 grain range like what was said above. PM me your address and I will send you a couple different bullet designs of a known dead soft lead to try out. I am pretty sure that is a hoyt liner but I don't know what the ROT would be or anything.

[jonk]

Hoyt's stampings on mine are on the underside of the barrel.

Not sure who did JRA's relines, but anyone with a lathe and access to rifled barrel blanks could do it... given Hoyt and Whitacre are the two main names in the game for relines and replacements, I'd strongly think it's one of them. I've certainly seen other names in the business, but they've been out for a long time and some are long since dead... last one I saw with a 7 groove rifling was a Bill Large barrel, but unless they had some old stock, he hasn't been in the game for decades.

[mpapajoffre]

Hoyt's stampings on mine are on the underside of the barrel.

Not sure who did JRA's relines, but anyone with a lathe and access to rifled barrel blanks could do it... given Hoyt and Whitacre are the two main names in the game for relines and replacements, I'd strongly think it's one of them. I've certainly seen other names in the business, but they've been out for a long time and some are long since dead... last one I saw with a 7 groove rifling was a Bill Large barrel, but unless they had some old stock, he hasn't been in the game for decades.

The only stampings an the underside of the barrel are a ".58 Black powder only", and some small single stamps that look like proofs. There is "JRA" stamped on the left side of the breech or on the side of the tang, can't remember which.

Assuming the weapon starts to shoot well with 45-50 grains of FFFg, is the power generated by this loading enough to kill whitetail deer with?

[Fred Jr]

Hell yes! I have killed several deer with my "target" load. Also got one with 40g of FFF with my Henry. Ian is right on about the lead. Take his offer and get some of his bullets.

Best of luck!

Fred

[R. McAuley 3014V]

It is my understanding, and others here may be able to correct me, but for their production line of "match grade" muzzle-loaders, JRA ordered the barrels unrifled (as smoothbores), then sent them to Bobby Hoyt to rifle them per whatever specifications was needed according to the model arm (i.e. C.S. Richmond in .577 per the original C.S. Richmond specs). Some other attributes, such as the rate of twist may have varied from the C.S. Richmond spec, to use say a 1:60 rate of twist for modern match purposes versus the 1:72 for the original Model 1855 rate of twist. Bobby Hoyt also offers his own production barrels that feature the 7-groove rifling, and the barrels are marked with the bore size and usually the rate of twist as well. I have one of his barrels in a Model 1863 Artillery rifle configuration.

[loflyr55]

I have two James River rifles, both 2 band and both 7 land and groove but they are significantly different in loads. My 2 band Richmond rifle likes a heavy gardner bullet with 38 grains FFF. If I bump it up, the group opens and moves left.

My Mississippi (58 cal) likes semiwadcutters and 44 grains (3f or 2f, doesn't matter).

sometimes you just gotta keep trying the combinations, it can be frustrating.

Happy Shooting

[mpapajoffre]

I just returned from the range and a shooting session with my JRA Richmond. I had great results! 2" groups at 50 yds. Started with 40 grns 3F as suggested here and worked up in 5 grn increments. I shot 3 shot groups with each increment of powder, from 40 grns to 70 grns. I easily got 2"-3" inch groups with the only difference being the elevation of the point of impact. With 40 grns the groups hit right at POA. As I increased the powder charge the POI went up. 6" high with 60 grns. and about 4" high with 70 grns.

What I did different from last weeks' buckshot shoot was I switched from 2F to 3F powder as suggested, and I lubed the hell out of my bullets with SPG. I rolled the bullets in molten SPG and then filled the bases too.

Thank you all for your responses.

[ian45662]

Glad to hear about your success!!! I got your PM I will get these out to you in the coming week.

[Maillemaker]

I've got a JRA Richmond Carbine. It's barrel is stamped Hoyt. It likes RCBS-Hodgdon bullets with 44 grains 3F.

Steve

[mpapajoffre]

How do you guys measure out 44 grns of powder? All my powder measures are in 5 grn increments.

[Fred Jr]

Many if not most use some kind of drop charger. I use a Lyman55 charger. They can be adjusted by any amount. I weight my drops until I get the correct amount and then weigh every so often. We use plastic tubes to hold our powder and then put the bullet in the top of the tube. We are not permitted to carry loose powder to the line. Each round must be contained separately. PM me your email and I can send you some pics of the process.

Fred

[Lou Lou Lou]

An electronic scale is a big help.
On the cost effective side, the Lee powder measures can help the 2.8cc scoop is supposed to be 44.6 grs of FFFg.

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello:
Just one thing:
Not all electronic scales have circuitry that eliminate errors from either low batteries or AC voltage changes.
Most household AC can vary enough over a half-hour that "zero's" can shift.
While the errors these factors induce are not material for most BP measurements; in some situations you cannot trust a scale unless carefully tested with a known test weight..
Regards,
Kevin

[mpapajoffre]

I have reloaded center fire cartridges for a long time so I am familiar with this kind of loading equipment. It had just never occurred to me to weigh out black powder as I'd always been taught to measure black powder by volume, not weight. I do realize that you are weighing a volumetric measurement of the powder and then just using the powder measure to duplicate it quickly.

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello:
As far as I know, most Black Powder is sized in a screening process that allows a range of particle sizes within a specific designation. This means that volume can contain mixtures of slightly varying sizes that have different WEIGHTS.

So unless all the particles are very closely sized, there will be weight variation in volumetric charges. This is why extreme accuracy black powder shooters may both rescreen to remove the "fines" that pass the final screen and then scale weigh the charge.
We spent a lot of years using such methods and found that the extreme spread of muzzle velocity was halved.
Ok, for muskets at 50 yards, it probably doesn't matter with all the pounding that occurs with the rod. This pounding does fracture some granules so velocities vary just from that!
I know there are some gray beards that shoot at Winchester that are very saavy in this regard. HP is one.
Regards,
Kevin

[mpapajoffre]

This stuff is fascinating! I can't wait meet up with y'all at the Fort!

[Curt]

Hallo!

My brothers-in-law gave up patched round ball guns to use CW guns for deer hunting. (They liked the ease of loading from a skirmish tube over "rolling their own.")

IMHO...

Deer hunting will depend upon where you live or hunt... meaning there can be difference in what is needed for a 'hunting load' if one lives in an eastern wooded state where most deer are taken between 35-40 yards- versus a western plains state where 100-200 shots can be needed.

Deer are thin skinned animals... :) The last time I loaned my skirmish gun to a brother-in-law, with its 36 grains of 3F and the small semi-wadcutter Minie, he shot a deer at 80 yards and the round went in one side, through the lungs, and exited out the other side.

Curt

[RaiderANV]

Then there are State laws. Virginny says you must use at least 50 grains of powder. Didn't know that when I was shooting deer with my skirmish load of 36 grains of 3F Goex and they were in one side and out the other shots dropping the deer where they stood or within a few feet. Never heard of a game warden checking the grains in someone load but I reckon it's been done.

[Maillemaker]

How do you guys measure out 44 grns of powder? All my powder measures are in 5 grn increments.

I use an electronic scale to determine charge by weight. I adjust my powder dropper until it will drop the desired weight, as verified by scale. Then I load my cartridges volumetrically.

Steve

[R. McAuley 3014V]

There are lots of good volume measures available, including Lyman 55, but the 1950-70s vintage powder measures (and flasks) made by the late Mark Burnham, of Monks Corner, SC (formerly of Savannah, GA), is far above the powder measures available today. Indeed, when you find them, they are not cheap! Mark would often demonstrate his measure by selecting a weight at random, pour the powder into his palm, then place it on the scales-- and if the line on the valve indicated a specific weight, it threw that same amount every time.

http://www.icollector.com/Pair-of-Vintage-Black-Powder-Horns-Signed_i10110263
(http://www.icollector.com/Pair-of-Vintage-Black-Powder-Horns-Signed_i10110263)
His grandson Steve MacDonald and I grew up together, and I spent many a day in his grandfather's workshop. Back in the late 1970s, Dixie Gun Works sold a flint sharpening tool that Mark Burnham developed that looked similar to an ordinary screwdriver. Some of you may have even bought one? The end of the tool was rebated, having a chiseled edge all the way around. As you applied pressure downward against the face of a rifle flint, the chisel edge would cause small pieces of the flint to break away, thus dressing the leading edge of the flint. Mark found that using this tool, he could achieve up to 150 consecutive "sparkings" sharpening the flint this way. Turner Kirkland once asked him, why only 150 times? Mark replied, he would have done more but his fingers tired from cocking the hammer!

If anyone owns one of Mark Burnham's flintlocks, they'll understand. The ignition of his flintlock rifles was no mere "ka-boom" when they fired; the ignition was instantaneous. The sparks reminded me of a thunderstorm.