Finding bayonet that fits ArmiSport 1861 Springfield

[tonyvr4]

I have been looking around for a bayonet for my ArmiSport reproduction 1861 Springfield

I bought one the other day and the bayonet does not fit over the front sight. It slides over the barrel but the loop that is supposed to fit over the front sight is not big enough. I am attaching a picture to illustrate

Anyone know if this is common or where I could get one at a reasonable price?
Thanks

[Curt]

Hallo!

IMHO...

Your best bet is to see if any one in Sutler's Row has bayonets out that you can try on for fit.

Failing that, go to a decent sized CW reenactment where there are sufficient sutlers/vendors with your gun in hand, and try some on.

Over the years, the quality of Pakistani import M1855 bayonets has varied across the low end of the spectrum. The Italian version is the "best of the worst" but they too can suffer from "fit' issues because of inconsistent Italian QC as well as manufacturing "lack of tolerances" (oh, okay.. "tolerances' to be polite) to the point there is normally, usually, generally (NUG) no universal "fit' between muskets and bayonets over the decades.
NOT only for the 'bridge" height, but also for the socket's inside diameter to the point some will not go on at all and others rattle around too loose.

And typically, skirmish guns have raised front sights for 50 yard shooting that prevents a socket bayonet from fitting.

Oh, sometimes, some of the Indian/Pakistani low-end stuff can have the socket 'hole' off center enough so that there is a goodly amount of metal in the bridge that will allow a jeweler's file to get in and increase it to accommodate the musket's bayonet stud/front sight.

Curt

[williamslaybaugh]

Yes, this is very common. All of the reproduction bayonets will need some kind of fitting. It is also likely that your front sight is to far back for the locking ring to fully engage once it's over that point.

[tonyvr4]

Your best bet is to see if any one in Sutler's Row has bayonets out that you can try on for fit.
Curt

What is sutlers row?

I have found quite a few sutlers on google but not sure if any of their bayonets would fit

[John Holland]

tonyvr4 -

Curt's suggestion of filing the inside of the bridge is quite correct. I have seen numerous examples of original period bayonets that have had the bridge modified to fit an arm other than the one it was originally adapted to.

JDH
SABC
(Society of American Bayonet Collectors)

[Curt]

Hallo!

Sorry pard, I missed seeing you are "VISITOR" and not an N-SSA member (?).

"Sutler's Row" is the name some of us gave to the "commercial area" at the N-SSA facility "Fort Shenandoah" near Winchester VA which hosts the N-SSA nationals and other regional skirmishes.

Although I did have a pard who referred to it as the 'settlers.' :)

Among reenactors, at reenactments large enough to attract them, commercial vendors and makers are usually all assigned to an area to set up where participants or spectators folks can "shop." Many call those areas "sutler's row."

A number of Civil War vendors also set up at regional type gun shows sometimes.

Curt

[Paul Lampman 263V]

If you can get a small triangular type file of the type for sharpening handsaws you can open up the "channel" enough to clear the sight blade. It doesn't take a whole lot of effort. The bayonets are quite soft.

[Curt]

Hallo!

"I have found quite a few sutlers on google but not sure if any of their bayonets would fit ."

Exactly. No,, they would most likely NOT. In brief.... there is so much variation in "dimensions" between reproduction muskets and reproduction bayonets (especially at the lowest end) that it more a matter of luck or chance that you would order one and find that it fit properly or even at all.

(Second, the variations and deviations in size and dimensions among Italian reproductions also means that even original M1855 socket bayonets will not fit reproduction "Springfield" muskets without chance luck or modification. This PARTICULARY so with original British P1853 bayonets on the reproduction P1853 "Enfield." And for that matter, the P1853 Type 3 Enfield used in the ACW and made by a group of makers in the BSAT....were essentially local "hand made" non-interchangeable parts so that even original Enfield bayonets may not fit original Enfield muskets if not the one they originally came with or from the same maker.)

Curt

[tonyvr4]

If you can get a small triangular type file of the type for sharpening handsaws you can open up the "channel" enough to clear the sight blade. It doesn't take a whole lot of effort. The bayonets are quite soft.

I do have that type of file. But I would have to remove so much material that it would cut a notch in the bayonet

[tonyvr4]

Here is another photo that may clarify the problem
Sorry I can't figure out how to make the photo smaller2769

[williamslaybaugh]

That's how most of them are. Here is your short list of options.

1.Try 50 bayonets or more and maybe one might fit.
2. Cut a slot through the bayonet bridge.
3. File down the front sight and use it as a bayonet lug.
4. Both option 2&3 until it slides over.

Once the sight goes through the bridge you will need to see if the locking ring engages the sight. If yes you're in good shape. If no here are your options.

1. Remove the front sight and replace it so the bayonet functions.
2. File the locking ring down until the sight is engaged.
3. File the sight base smaller until the locking ring is engaged.
4. Have a wobbly bayonet.

[Curt]

Hallo!

I know camera angle is hard to determine, but looking at two pictures.. and projecting a line forward.. it looks (maybe) that you would lose only half of the thickness of the top of the bridge in allowing the sight blade to pass under/through it?

I guess, it may be a matter of time and money. You already have a bayonet that might (?) can be altered to fit. Especially so if you lose only half of the metal thickness you would still have ample strength (Repro bayonet are just mild steel, some softer than others and NOT hardened and tempered (much like springs) to flex and bend but then "spring" back as were the originals. As some reenactors have found out, when trying to dig with their bayonets, or more particularly fix them and use them as shelter half upright poles- the blades bend and stay bent even for such mundane tasks as stacking arms.
Would rather search for and buy another, or try to make the one you have work (if it can be done)?

Again, I am looking at side pictures and not all of the needed angles to give a better opinion.

Curt

[tonyvr4]

Hallo!
I know camera angle is hard to determine, but looking at two pictures..
Curt

You may be right, it is hard to tell. I looked at it from different angles and still can't be sure.
It may be as you mentioned.

I would just hate to hack a bayonet and then find out it will not fit. I would not be able to return it at that point

I am going to try and take some measurements tomorrow.

[Timmeu]

Could you have someone weld some more metal on the top of the bayonet where the sight goes and then file it out beneath it? I am sure that it would be a cost a bit but it might be an easier answer. Not my area of expertise but I think tig welding is what do the trick.

[geezmo]

Tony,
from the first photo you posted it looks like the inside diameter of the socket is fairly large compared to the barrel diameter. Also, the inside of the bridge or loop as you called it is flat across like on bayonets for muskets with a separate bayonet lug, not the sight. Can't see from the photos, but if the shank and blade come off the socket on the side opposite the bridge I'd say it's a bayonet for a model 1842. Can you post a photo that shows the entire socket and blade connection?
Barry

[Lou Lou Lou]

Many folks just cut a slot for the front sight. On an inexpensive repro bayonet it isn't an issue like an original bayonet would be.

[tonyvr4]

I found a bayonet that fits my 1861 Springfield perfectly. It is from Regimental Quartermaster.

I think the other one may have been for an Enfield. They are not that different. But if you look closely at the
end that goes over the musket, there is a difference in the notch and overall cut

Here is a pic to compare
2778

Thanks everyone

[John Holland]

Well, your comparative photos have explained the problem, which many of us should have caught right in the very beginning! Your first bayonet is for a Model 1842 musket!!!

JDH

[Curt]

Hallo!

A case of not seeing the tree for the forest for me.

I focused on the front sight, not paying attention to the bayonet's elbow on the lower left and not the slop in the socket inside diameter

:(

Having things "in one's hand'' is so much easier. :)

Curt

[tonyvr4]

Well, your comparative photos have explained the problem, which many of us should have caught right in the very beginning! Your first bayonet is for a Model 1842 musket!!!

JDH

Ah, ha! That would definitely explain it. Thanks for the info

I may have to file the new one slightly. It fits on the Musket and I can twist it over the front sight. But the locking ring
does not turn while on the Musket. It seems that the bayonet needs to slide down the barrel only a couple of mm

[tonyvr4]

I was looking at the 1861 Springfield Bayonet and noticed that it does not have the "US" stamped on it. I want to make it look more authentic
Is there anywhere that I can get a metal stamp to duplicate that marking?

Thanks

[Curt]

Hallo!

Yes.

There are numerous companies that make hardened steel letter and number stamps in other than the common modern 'sans serif" block style. It takes some searching on the Internets to track them down. The key is measuring the height of the "US" needed to know what size to order, oh say for pretend or non-example 2mm or 5/64ths.

Sets can run as "cheap" as say $20-40 or so.

That is a tricky proposition as it requires one to hold two small stamps and whack them hard enough to make a clean strike, lined up, parallel, etc., to matching depth.

The alternative is pricey, and that involves having a professional style and quality "US" stamp custom made at a steel stamp maker. That proper size mighty run $100-$150 or so. A few years ago I had a "US" stamp made for the butt tangs of M1841 Rifles, and it was $200.

You can see where I am going here- that being that stricter or higher "authenticity" can come with a price tag that many Skirmishers would not think important enough to do. (Markings and stampings on reproduction stuff is NUG- normally, usually, generally, is missing or totally absent or if present wrong.

In this case, it would be cheaper to find an original bayonet with its PC markings and use it. But then te discussion turns full circle back to fitting issues between originals and Italian repro's.

Curt

[tonyvr4]

I see what you mean. It may add to the authenticity, but it is not really worth the extra cost

As long as it fits and looks good, that is my biggest concern
Thanks

[tonyvr4]

I was able to fix the bayonet and now it fits perfectly. I took my dremel and sanded the end about 1-2mm

Now the locking ring turns perfectly. I also repolished the end so that someone looking at it would never know


Thanks everyone