Funny looking barrel

[Michael Bodner]

A friend recently brought me a repro musket that they were given. The barrel has many lands/grooves (probably about 10) instead of the usual 3. But what is 'odd' about the barrel is at the breech end. The joint between the barrel and the breech plug is about 1.5 inches in front of the end of the barrel. Looking into the barrel I can see a channel in the middle of the breech plug that leads back to the touch hole. In other words, there is a sub-chamber between the rifling and the touch hole.

First of all, it would make it damn near impossible to swab this area. It would have to be sumped to keep it cleaned. No big deal, but it makes me wonder if it can/should be fired.

But I'm wondering, has anyone ever seen one of these barrels? There were no marking on the barrel anywhere except for "NAC" on the breech side (under the wood).

Something in my head says that this was a barrel made from on old (modern) military barrel blank (or rebored) 'cause I sort of remember hearing about this funny chamber/breech.

Anyone have any information or advise on this?

BTW: Anyone think that this gun could shoot a minie, or with all those lands & grooves (pretty deep too) that this might be a patched ball gun only.

Thanks!

[John Bly]

It sounds like a Numrich Arms Co. barrel with a patent breech. They had 8 lands and grooves. The patent breech is hard to clean except with the breech end immersed in cleaning solution or with a rubber hose on the nipple immersed in the solution. They are on the approved barrel list for several models and were more popular 20-25 years ago or more.

[Greg Ogdan 110th OVI]

Bootsie,

Sure sounds like a patent breech. Pay attention to what others have said about cleaning. As I remember, the Numrich barrels shoot very well. As to all the grooves, I had a friend iwth 2 original Mississippi rifles and both had microgroove barels and shot lights out.

Greg

[Michael Bodner]

Outstanding! I was figuring this was a 'bad' barrel design. We'll see if we can get it shootin'!!

-Mike

PS: I heard that even though the 110 was working Nationals this year, that you still medaled..... LOL

[Chris Sweeney]

I have 2 NAC Zouave barrels; one shoots very well as is. the other had a narrow spot (.571) in the bore about halfway down. had to send it to Mr. Hoyt. You should probably drop a pin gauge through it and check before investing a lot of money and time in it.

I trimmed a bronze brush to the approx. powder chamber size and that (along with immersion) seems to do an adequate job of cleaning

[gmkmd]

The patent breech design (with powder chamber smaller than bore diameter) is fairly common in a variety of different muzzle loaders. In fact, the Pedersoli Gibbs longe-range muzzle-loading target rifles are made this way, true to the original design.

[Whitworth Kid]

All my orginal Whitworths have the parent breach system. I heard someone talk about why they they came up with that system but cant remember why. Anyone know the history on the patent breach system?

[Whitworth Kid]

I've never had a cleaning problem with the patent breech, just flush with plenty hot water an a squirt of dawn and all is well. Just watch and don't get the cleaning rod hung down in breech. It goes in eazy but can be heck to pull back out. I've never used a scraper and when I had the breech plugs out of 2 of the rifles they were clean. 85grs 2f swiss, 530gr PP round deep base bullet, no wad, 60-1 lead to tin swaged.

[Michael Bodner]

How the heck do we clean this 'little chamber'? (by that I mean - Dry it out so it doesn't dampen the new load?

-Mike

[JeffS]

I use a .410 mop and brush to clean the one that I shoot. Works very well. It will shoot a minie with no problems.

[Chris Sweeney]

Given that I am a perennial B-teamer on musket, it is not uncommon for me to be shooting 50+ rounds Sunday morning. I have never had a problem with fouling, and all I do between relays is run a brush down to pull out some of the bigger cooties.

There are a couple of caveats with patent breeches: you have to make sure that the load is large enough to fill the "chamber" so that the minie is not sitting on the breech with a cavity underneath. Shooting in the rain is also problematic; it doesn't take too many raindrops to cover the flash hole!

[John Holland]

The breech system referred to is known as a "Chambered Breech". It is not new by any means and is well over 150 years old. FYI, all musket barrels made by Bill Large have a chambered breech.

JDH

[Michael Bodner]

Well, Heck! I'm learning all sorts of new stuff!!

Thanks for all the info and help!!

-Mike

[dhaze]

I have a Lyman percussion Trade Rifle that has a powder channel in the breech area. Lyman says to use a .38 caliber brush or slotted jag on it.

All you would need to do is determine the diameter of the channel and go from there in regards to cleaning.

[gemmer]

I've never had a problem with a percussion gun with a patent breech, but I've had some issues with flint rifles breeched that way. Why the problem was only with the flint rifles is not clear to me other than perhaps it was coincidence. In one case the powder chamber was too narrow. In the other it was a problem with the champher at the chamber mouth. In both cases it caused a condition known as bridging which is a build up of fouling which blocks the mouth of the chamber, preventing the powder from filling it. While there is no way to detect that problem in a percussion gun after loading it, it's easy to detect in a flinter. If you run a wire pick into the touch hole and get little or no resistance, you're going to get a hang fire.

Duane

[Maillemaker]

I found this interesting image while doing a Google search.

http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx243/galamb2/flintbreeches_zpsba5f07c5.jpg

Steve

[Michael Bodner]

I would have to say its a Chambered Breech

[Joseph Plakis Jr, 00302V]

Mike
The way I used to clean mine was to take a 30 cal. brush and clean the reduced section. Then use a patch on a 30 cal. rod. The rest of the barrel you clean like you normally do. It makes it easier if you put a small plug on your nipple half fill the barrel with water, put a cork in the muzzle end. you then drive home and clean the gun when you get there. It helps to soften the cake in the back end of the barrel.

Joe Plakis Jr 00302V
Hampton Legion.

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Remington’s Maynard conversion of the M1816 has quite a large chambered breech, and is capable of holding up to 50 grains of powder, which would rarely have presented a problem using the 70-grain charge for .69 elongated ball in the altered musket. But in order to keep the chamber clean Remington’s wiper was purposefully tapered to allow for cleaning this recess, though I don’t imagine wiping it was very effective against any hard carbon buildup. Yet, then again, none of these muskets really were ever remotely envisioned by their makers of remaining functional for 150+ years.

[Michael Bodner]

I have to say that now that I'm learning about this type of barrel, I'm finding the whole thing pretty fascinating... Never imagined anything other than the 'straight, flat' breech.

-Mike