Suddenly having fill out issues

[jonk]

Moose 580 315. This particular mold has always seemed to prefer bottom pour and high high heat. Suddenly I'm getting 50 percent rejects with pure lead. Tried ladle pouring to see 'what's up' and no dice, same issue. This was from sheet lead with the paper backing that checks as pure on my cabin tree hardness tester. Previously did fine.

Main issue seems to be wrinkles in the skirt. Some very minor ones don't worry me, but these are enough to in some cases show on the outside of the bullet.

Well fluxed with beeswax and sawdust.

Mold is smoked.

I'm almost out of this lead so the issue might resolve itself with the new batch I got at the Defiance skirmish, but I'm all ears as to what happened. Previously I got about 5-10% rejects with this stuff. Any ideas? Fills out my smith mold fine once the mold is to temperature, and my Lee trashcan even with the tiny lube grooves. So I think it's the mold itself. Any suggestions?

[Ron/The Old Reb]

Try scrubbing the mold with alcohol and a tooth brush.

[jonk]

Try scrubbing the mold with alcohol and a tooth brush.

You know, that's a heck of a good idea. Just because it was degreased when I got it doesn't mean it can't have picked up some oil contamination somewhow. I don't normally oil aluminum molds but I do store it with the iron molds that ARE oiled (and which get degreased before use of course). If I had an iron one sitting on it, it well could have gotten a little oil in the cavity. Or certainly random other dirt is possible.

[Maillemaker]

Also, are you using a thermometer to determine your lead temp, or just the "usual knob setting" on the furnace? Maybe your furnace is dying somehow and the lead is not as hot as you think it is.

Steve

[jonk]

Also, are you using a thermometer to determine your lead temp, or just the "usual knob setting" on the furnace? Maybe your furnace is dying somehow and the lead is not as hot as you think it is.

Steve

Also a good idea. For the bottom pour I usually run the Lee 10 lb on 10, which is the max, until the sprue is taking more than 10 seconds to harden; then I back it off to a 7.

It's an old pot, has seen a lot of use. Lately it has been shocking me until up to temp, which I attributed to dampness, so I wrapped the pour handle in electrical tape. Issue goes away after it is up to temp. Could be there is a short or the heating element is dying though, and it isn't getting as hot as normal. May have to order a replacement element and see, or open it up and look for any frayed or burnt wires.

[Rebel Dave]

I am with Steve. MY casting went bad, and I found my Lyman mag 20 was not getting hot enough. It was 30 yrs old. It would not get up tp 850* all of a sudden, I was getting wrinkeled bullets. I sent it to Lyman and they replaced several parts. It cost me $75.00, for the rebuild, plus shipping to Lyman. Check your led temp. If you read the paper work with Moose molds it says that's what they recommend (850*).

Rebel Dave

[Michael Bodner]

If you're getting shocked, then there is a dangerous electric issue with that pot and you should stop using it immediately and repair it (Unless you like defibbing your heart).

Its a very simple item: A thermostat, a heating coil, and the pot.

1) Remove screws from top plate (holding thermostat). Examine for wires shorting to frame. Fix.

-Mike

[Eggman]

Strongly agree with Bootsie on this. DON"T use the pot until repaired or replaced.
As an aside, I had a friend up in Yankeeland who came running in a panic to my house one day because all the (round) balls he was casting had wrinkles. He profusely exclaimed that had skimmed the pot many many many times to get the lead as pure as possible, so how can the balls possibly be bad(?????). I said "Lead that clean (pure) wont cast Leroy (not his real name)." Once he "dirtied" it up a bit he got nice castings again.

[Maillemaker]

It's an old pot, has seen a lot of use. Lately it has been shocking me until up to temp, which I attributed to dampness, so I wrapped the pour handle in electrical tape. Issue goes away after it is up to temp. Could be there is a short or the heating element is dying though, and it isn't getting as hot as normal. May have to order a replacement element and see, or open it up and look for any frayed or burnt wires.

Yowch!

If you are getting zapped, then it probably means the heating element has come in contact with something it shouldn't. Or possibly it has broken and now only part of the element is operational. Perhaps as it heats up the elements are expanding and perhaps touching back together again.

In any case if you're getting shocked you've got electricity going where it should not and in addition to being unsafe you aren't dumping the energy into heat into the lead.

Could be time for a new pot and I recommend a thermometer like this:

$49:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/357906/rcbs-lead-bullet-casting-thermometer

Lee 4-20 pot $68:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1262645810/lee-pro-4-20-lb-furnace

I don't know who makes your pot, but you can buy replacement heating elements for the Lee pots. They cost about $15.

Steve

[Michael Bodner]

The heating element is probably NOT the cause of the short. If you've ever disassembled a Lee pot you will discover that the heating element is a ceramic loop. At each end is an electrode that consists of a male blade-contact. The wires to the thermostat and ultimately to the 110VAC power contain the female contact.

When properly installed, the electrode needs to be BENT to prevent contact between its uninsulated body and the frame of the melter.

Probably from handling, etc, the electrode has come in contact with the frame. Or, as I mentioned, one of the wires has frayed/worn through and is now touching the frame. Either way, you can access all the wiring by removing the plate that holds the thermostat.

Good luck!!

-Mike

[Muley Gil]

"Try scrubbing the mold with alcohol and a tooth brush."

DO NOT use your wife's toothbrush.

Don't ask me how I know this.

Y'all do know the toothbrush was invented in West Virginia, right?

If it had been invented in Virginia, they would have called it a teethbrush. :D

[R. McAuley 3014V]

The heating element is probably NOT the cause of the short. If you've ever disassembled a Lee pot you will discover that the heating element is a ceramic loop. At each end is an electrode that consists of a male blade-contact. The wires to the thermostat and ultimately to the 110VAC power contain the female contact.

When properly installed, the electrode needs to be BENT to prevent contact between its uninsulated body and the frame of the melter.

Probably from handling, etc, the electrode has come in contact with the frame. Or, as I mentioned, one of the wires has frayed/worn through and is now touching the frame. Either way, you can access all the wiring by removing the plate that holds the thermostat.

Good luck!!

-Mike

I get my best molded bullets in the summertime when it's over 100 degrees in the shade because you don't have to use as many Btu's to heat the lead.

[gsn]

Am reading this thread as I too have recently begun to have fill out issues. I use a ladle from a Lee Pot and can cast two to four in a row that come out perfect. Then the next one has a small void at the top of the skirt (where the cone comes to a point - center of minie). Am always trying to do everything the same, however end up tossing way to many back in the pot. Can one pour to fast or too slow when casting a minie? Molds are prepped with Rapine Mold prep and always brought up to temperature before starting a session. I can get the voids at any time during a casting session.

Thank you

[jonk]

Am reading this thread as I too have recently begun to have fill out issues. I use a ladle from a Lee Pot and can cast two to four in a row that come out perfect. Then the next one has a small void at the top of the skirt (where the cone comes to a point - center of minie). Am always trying to do everything the same, however end up tossing way to many back in the pot. Can one pour to fast or too slow when casting a minie? Molds are prepped with Rapine Mold prep and always brought up to temperature before starting a session. I can get the voids at any time during a casting session.

Thank you

Voids at the top of the pin I can at least address. In my experience, due to rapid cooling inside the mold and it can't suck enough lead in from the sprue before that too hardens. Usually more an issue with aluminum than steel. Try hotter lead, or get a lyman ladle with the spout that lets you press it right up against the sprue plate- and hold it there. With a bottom pour, hold right against the nipple for a few seconds, then release the handle and remove the mold. Note a little solid lead might pull out from the ladle/pour spout. Not an issue if you go gently.

[Ron/The Old Reb]

"Try scrubbing the mold with alcohol and a tooth brush
DO NOT use your wife's toothbrush
Don't ask me how I know this"

Muley
You don't do this when your wife is home. You waite till she goes away for the day. Then you never ever tell her what you did. What she doest know wont hurt her.http://www.n-ssa.org/vbforum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

[Muley Gil]

" What she doest know wont hurt her.http://www.n-ssa.org/vbforum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif"

Ron, I corrected the above:

" What she doesn't know won't hurt ME.http://www.n-ssa.org/vbforum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif"

[Michael Bodner]

Jonk - For voids at the tip of the pin, general practice is to let the lead 'swirl' as it's poured. To do that, don't let the lead go straight into the mold - Let it hit the lip and go in at an angle.

Also, small voids may look bad, but generally do not cause enough of a weight differnce that you would toss that one aside. And a void very near the center of mass will have very little effect on accuracy (try it) - It's a physics thing.

Voids at the edges, however, can have a greater impact.

[gsn]

Thanks for the tips. Will take some with voids to the range and see how they fly.

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Brooks moulds have a vented sprue plate and it works great casting my new 680-grain Whitworth conicals

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii305/rmac1023/Brooks26-BoreWhitworthMould_zps614f3e4f.jpg

[Maillemaker]

How do you vent the sprue plate? Doesn't it have a big hole for the lead to go down and let air out? Does it have grooves scored radially from the pour hole on its bottom?

Steve

[jonk]

How do you vent the sprue plate? Doesn't it have a big hole for the lead to go down and let air out? Does it have grooves scored radially from the pour hole on its bottom?

Steve

A vented sprue plate has a trough cut in the top of it so the lead can more easily run directly into the mold, usually opposite of the direction of cutting. I modified one that way myself with a dremel tool and file once. Meh. Seemed to help a LITTLE, but really for molds I've had issues with fill out, drilling out the pour hole to be about the same diameter as the bullet nose helped a ton. After doing so I used an acorn nut and some valve grinding compound to re-bevel the hole again.

[R. McAuley 3014V]

How do you vent the sprue plate? Doesn't it have a big hole for the lead to go down and let air out? Does it have grooves scored radially from the pour hole on its bottom?

Steve

Like Jonk said, the top of the sprue plate is channeled from the pour hole to the outer edge of the sprue plate, to allow the air in the mould to escape as you are pouring the molten lead into the cavity. With hard lead, this Whitworth conical casts at 680-grains and another 20-grains heavier with pure lead, but it also measures 1.25-inches in length and .562-inches in diameter, so throwing this bad boy isn't like casting those little tiny, short things you are casting. Though I can see some advantages of casting these bullets using bottom-pour production pot, but I've been casting from an open pot for over 40 years now, even though I started casting using a Lee bottom-pour furnace in the mid-1970s. I just seem to get a better quality bullet from an open pot than I could ever get from a production furnace. It's like the lead or the mould just never quite seemed to get hot enough; often simply because the element wore out. From an open pot, I usually only throw away maybe the first six or eight castings before the mould heats up, and I usually cast upwards of 150 bullets per session. But with an open pot, you can get the lead too hot! The first time I tried to use my Hodgdon mould, it literally began falling apart because the mould got too hot! For .50 cal or less, I generally cast between 675 to 700 degrees, while for .58's the lead generally works best for me at between 725 to 750 (when the surface gets a golden sheen). But I have also noticed that as you get closer to the bottom of the pot, the lead not only gets hotter the cast bullets also seem to get even denser. Using a side-pour ladle for open pot casting is the best way to cast these bullets if you're not using a bottom-pour production pot. Though I have a Lyman side-pour ladle for casting these big hunkers, I've been using the same old late-1800s silver soup spoon to cast bullets for the last 40 years.

[Maillemaker]

Like Jonk said, the top of the sprue plate is channeled from the pour hole to the outer edge of the sprue plate, to allow the air in the mould to escape as you are pouring the molten lead into the cavity.

So instead of pouring the lead down the hole, you pour it into this channel and then it runs down the channel and goes down the hole?

Steve

[R. McAuley 3014V]

No, no, no. As you pour the molten lead into the orifice, the vent channel permits any air trapped inside the cavity with a exit point so to vent itself, escaping into the channel. The channel is about half the depth of the sprue plate. Much of the time, the size of the stream of molten lead does not fill the whole orifice, thus allowing sufficient space for air to escape around the fluid stream. Only when you flood the orifice with more molten lead than can successfully pass through the orifice (too fast a pour) and into the cavity do you risk clogging the orifice and trapping air inside. If the molten lead is at the correct temperature, it usually will remain molten for just a few milliseconds longer allowing more air to escape.

[Maillemaker]

I'm afraid I'm dense and not visualizing what you are saying. A picture would be great.

Steve