Powders and consistency

[jonk]

I picked up a fine Fayetteville at fall nationals last year, and both from the bench and offhand she shoots great groups. Hoyt barrel, sizing to .578, seems to like just about any bullet with 45 gr of Goex 3f. It's full length bedded and the trigger is tuned to break about at 5 pounds. Peep sights. Lock and tang bolts haven't been moved and are tight. Barrel band tension seems good.

The issue is, even though it's FL bedded, I take it out one day, it's shooting low and left, the next day high and right, etc. Similar light conditions. Group size is still good, it's just the group wanders around. The only variance is temperature and humidity.

In loading my tubes, I've noticed that the GOEX powder seems to have a lot of variation in grain size- fines, larger pieces, etc. This is their normal standard grade. I'm wondering if that combined with changes in humidity (and the powder absorbing some moisture) isn't part of the issue; the fines in the powder seem to settle near the top of the can, and if I load say 25 tubes from the top of the can and then later 25 tubes from the bottom, it could be a different powder burn rate from top to bottom- or just a crappy batch of powder. (I also noted that it has some clumps in it, that do disappear as it goes through the dispenser).

I have a pound of Swiss on hand for experiments I've never gotten to. I'm thinking of running an event or two with that powder just to see how my hit time is. The question is... when switching from GOEX to Swiss, I presume I will have to start over with 38ish grains and just run strings of 5 up to about 50, and see where the sweet spot is, but: any predictions on that? I'd love to say, "Oh, 45 gr of Goex shoots like 43 gr of Swiss" etc., so I have a start point.

I know some people swear by Swiss, others say it's not worth the extra money, and I'd hate to find I had a gun that had a taste for it, but am certainly willing to try and see.

If anyone else has any clever ideas about what could be causing the gun to jump around as to point of zero, let me know.

[bob2ovi]

I don't know where you bought the powder, or how you are storing it, but if another new can of powder does the same thing, I'd question the bedding. Not all beddings are equal. :)

[jonk]

I don't know where you bought the powder, or how you are storing it, but if another new can of powder does the same thing, I'd question the bedding. Not all beddings are equal. :)

To answer the first part: Got it from back creek in 5 pound bags last fall, took it home and poured it off into empty 1 pound jugs, stored 4 per .50 ammo can with a dessicant pack. So we're good there. Don't know how HE stored it though.

Have had the barrel off, bedding LOOKS good, but might run a 'dollar bill' test on it and see if it's catching anywhere.

[Don Dixon]

If you want consistency in powder, the solution is Swiss, Swiss, and more Swiss. I've shot progressive lots over my chronograph since 2004. Its REMARKABLY consistent stuff compared to GOEX. My zeros are in virtually the same place lot to but, but I buy it in case lots. I suspect that most of my variation on target is due to climatic conditions and old eyes. Swiss is somewhat "hotter" than GOEX, but I would still shoot 45 - 50 grains in any .54 - 58 caliber weapon we shoot at Winchester. But, I'm not recoil shy, having shot M-14 service rifles for the Army for years. What works in cool, damp conditions in the spring will not necessarily work well in the hot dry summer.

However, with as much variation as you are talking about, you may have other problems. The bullet needs to be no more than .001 to .002 inches under bore size. The smaller it is, the more powder you need to slug it up to proper functioning size. Your load strikes me as a little light with GOEX. When I still shot GOEX, I used 50 - 55 grains in my Richmond carbine and 1858 Parker Hale Enfield. As also stated, all bedding jobs are not alike. Check that. Lube will also cause significant variations in different weather conditions. MCM works consistently well.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

[jonk]

SPG lube, and when I got the gun I ran from 40 up to 55 and saw best accuracy at 45 gr. Moose 315 gr mold sized to 1/1000 under bore size.

[Rob FreemanWBR]

Jonk,

Sorry to read about your troubles. I don't have a clear cut remedy that hones in on your issues, but (for what it's worth) would like to offer the following for your consideration - some (if not all) you may already know.

I too shoot a Fayetteville, using a .576 Hodgson with 43 gr 3 F Goex. My only issue is that I don't have a much time I'd like to practice... Bottom line, I'm extremely pleased with how she performs, consistently delivering a 1" group @ 50 & a very nice 2 - 3" group @ 100 (if I'm up on my game!). Wind doesn't play havoc with my rounds as nearly as much as others have expressed, in this case, the Hodgson.

All that aside, there are a lot of views on powders (GOEX vs. Swiss), lube, projectiles, etc. Swiss (in my opinion/experience) is a better powder (but more costly) in that it burns "cleaner". As such I only use it for my smoothie and revolver. Goex is a perfectly sound powder (again my opinion/experience) for use in muskets, carbines, BL/SS, etc. There have been past threads on the Bulletin Board re powders (specifically Goex), producing "suspect" lots, which adversely affected accuracy for other competitors.

Unfortunately the adage, "one man's meat, is another man's poison" holds VERY true in our beloved sport! What works for me absolutely will not work for others, or their pieces - hence trial & error is the only real solution to fixing any issues, esp. whenever starting out with a new arm or changing any "variable in the equation" (e.g. new barrel, different powder lot, etc…), in order to determine what works for you & your firearm.

[jonk]

Thanks Rob. Yes, it's true with any shooting sport. I have 2 consecutively numbered Savage 12 bolt action rifles, and one likes one load, the other doesn't do crap with that load. Just something to be worked out for any gun.

I'd like to try the Hodgdon mold; Tim Scanlan sold me the gun and said that's what it liked, but I found that the ones he gave me with the gun were sized to .575, and the gun bore measures .579. Given Bobby Hoyt made the barrel and stamped it .575, that's surprising. But anyhow, sizing to .578 is really required to see what those bullets would do, and as of yet I haven't gotten the .580 Hodgdon mold. I DO know that the bullets he gave me in no way did as well as my standard 315 ones. All that said- I have several other molds yet to try in it. Given it has a 1:56 twist (fairly fast compared to the usual 1:58 or 1:60) it might do better with a slightly heavier bullet.

The other thing I note is, all the range tests mean nothing on the line. I had the gun tearing out the X ring from the bench; then I pick it up and shoot offhand and while the group was tight, point of impact was slightly different. So I figured it was just how I was holding/firing it; then the next day point of impact was somewhere totally different. Drastically different. And even then, given my range won't let me shoot breakables, there's only so much I can learn with paper targets; coming up and running a bird board shows the proof in the pudding.

Naturally, I DO inspect my bullets after casting. Anything other than the most minor of defects gets tossed back in the pot, so that's one variable I can control at least.

[Rich Foster]

Jonk, Don't know your age but I would start with your eyes. A good test is and it is a shame you range wont allow breakables but when you hang your pigeons draw a circle with a marker around pigeon and compare your shot placement when you break it. If you drive the center out of a pigeon and shoot out of bull on paper it might be your eyes shooting black on white(doctor time). If you want to see what some bad Goex powder is like I have five cans that will drive you crazy when shooting it . If breech is seated embedded and front band in semi snug that should eliminate that embeddding cause. The bottom band should be loose to a point does not effect shooting if first two is correct. I would bet on powder or eyes. If you have not seen a eye doctor in a year visit him. When my guns point of aim start moving I move to the eye doctor. I go every year and get my right shooting glasses lens tweak. It might not be much as far as perscription and probably don't know it for regular day activities but it could look like turning a light switch on and off shooting at 50 and 100yds. Rich

[jonk]

Jonk, Don't know your age but I would start with your eyes. A good test is and it is a shame you range wont allow breakables but when you hang your pigeons draw a circle with a marker around pigeon and compare your shot placement when you break it. If you drive the center out of a pigeon and shoot out of bull on paper it might be your eyes shooting black on white(doctor time). If you want to see what some bad Goex powder is like I have five cans that will drive you crazy when shooting it . If breech is seated embedded and front band in semi snug that should eliminate that embeddding cause. The bottom band should be loose to a point does not effect shooting if first two is correct. I would bet on powder or eyes. If you have not seen a eye doctor in a year visit him. When my guns point of aim start moving I move to the eye doctor. I go every year and get my right shooting glasses lens tweak. It might not be much as far as perscription and probably don't know it for regular day activities but it could look like turning a light switch on and off shooting at 50 and 100yds. Rich

I'm 35. I DO have rather poor eyesight- got my first pair of glasses when I was 4- but I also have a current prescription set of custom shooting glasses. I can shoot a 300 yard high power target with open sights without issue, and seeing the target is never a problem- even the creamers we shot at Batesville this weekend.

I think my next job is going to be to check the bedding as you suggestion and try the Swiss. This gun groups so well; from a bench my first attempt with it put 17/18 shots inside a pigeon sized paper cutout, with 12 of those shots touching. Hardly anything was LEFT of the cutout in fact. Then the next attempt- group size was the same, but 3" up and right. Then 2" low and down. And so on.

Every skirmish, the bird board is wasted in figuring out where the hell the thing is shooting. Even on the hanging targets, trying to hold off 'x number of inches at 3, 6, 11 o clock' is iffy at best, and only conductive to getting a dozen hits or so.

[Whitworth Kid]

Don't know what yardage you be shootin but with the sun and humity lots of mirage. Groups will most sure move around. The target is not where you see it in a mirage. Just another thought.

[devisser]

After years of playing the game, I have discovered that you have to match the load to fit "YOUR GUN". Suggestions are great,but you have to try in on the range in your gun, your eyes, etc. I regularly "sight in muskets for tea, members, but my eyes are not your eyes...... You have to match your gun to your eyes and your round. .001" may make a difference in "a gun", but not your gun. You need to join a club and shoot your gun, you bullets, you load at 50 yds. Get a pattern and correct your sight. If your are not pattering at 50 yds, move the target closed and see when your gun shoots. I know strange things happen between 25 yd and 50 yds, but if you don't' have a pattern at 25 yds, you will never have one at 50 yds. Don't worry about the 100 yds. That comes later. get you musket shooting at 50yds and you will enjoy shooting.

[jonk]

After years of playing the game, I have discovered that you have to match the load to fit "YOUR GUN". Suggestions are great,but you have to try in on the range in your gun, your eyes, etc. I regularly "sight in muskets for tea, members, but my eyes are not your eyes...... You have to match your gun to your eyes and your round. .001" may make a difference in "a gun", but not your gun. You need to join a club and shoot your gun, you bullets, you load at 50 yds. Get a pattern and correct your sight. If your are not pattering at 50 yds, move the target closed and see when your gun shoots. I know strange things happen between 25 yd and 50 yds, but if you don't' have a pattern at 25 yds, you will never have one at 50 yds. Don't worry about the 100 yds. That comes later. get you musket shooting at 50yds and you will enjoy shooting.

I belong to two clubs. I shoot every weekend, and always take at least one skirmish gun to practice.

Interestingly, my best hit time this season is 100 yards.

I wouldn't be this frustrated if it were an issue of practice. For reference- I can shoot my Henry and hit the target 95% of the time (just did it at Batesville). I regularly get gold and silver medals in high power shooting. So I know that I can hold the gun tightly enough for results; now whether it's the load or the gun in some way, or if I'm doing something different in shooting the muzzle loader vs. cartridge guns that's causing issue, that's the question.

A teammate did notice this last weekend that I'm pulling my head off the gun instantly to try to see if I hit anything. I wouldn't say I flinch but perhaps lack of proper follow through is some of the issue.

But again, I get good groups, it just wanders.

I think that the mirage theory is worth considering as well. Will try some Swiss this weekend, see if that does me any good.

[jonk]

So some more info for those kind enough to weigh in.

I pulled the gun apart and found the rear band was WAY too tight. I needed a hammer to move it off. I did a little wood relief and got it to a nice snug but not too tight fit.

Today I ran a bird board with it using a number of different powders and bullets- an experiment long overdue.

Results:

RCBS Hodgdon: 70% hit rate.
Lee trash can: 50% hit rate
Moose 315 gr: standard 30ish% hit rate that's been driving me nuts!

These all with 43 gr of goex 3f at 50 yards- seems to be the magic number that the gun groups with best with most bullets.

If I can manage a 70% hit rate in a real skirmish, that would be a 28 second hit time given my rate of fire, on average. I'd be happy (given smaller targets than pigeons) if I come in at high 30s for the first time out with the new bullet; it would entirely vindicate me that it was the gun/load combo all along, and also catapult me into the number 2 or 3 spot on our team.

So (fingers crossed) I THINK I'm on the right track.

[Rich Foster]

Jonk, I have never shot mooses' 315grn bullet. Have you tried some lower charges with that bullet. Most other 315grn hollowbase minie did better around 38grn. I think you might be pushing that bullet to quick. 40-43grn sound right with hodgon. Never shot the lee bullet but it does have a thin skirt so you might be kicking it a little to fast. Basing that the old style 460 minie it does very well in most guns with 47.5 grns and it has a thick skirt. Then the thin skirt new style minie 500 grn. does well with 42 grns.Rich

[jonk]

Rich, when I got the Moose I started at 32 gr and worked up in 5 shot strings in 1 grain increments. It grouped best from a bench and offhand at 43 gr. I too have felt though, that some of the consistancy issues were due to pushing it a tad hard.

As for the Lee, I've never felt it had a thin skirt.

I will keep it in mind for the older heavier designs as I want to work up a 100 yard load with them due to the better bc.