De-leading, cleaning barrel

[Michael Bodner]

I've been shooting the same guns for almost 15 years. Recently, due to some accuracy issues (with my Smith Carbine) I've been doing some thinkin' and tryin'

Basically, it appears as if (at least) the first few inches of my barrel (from the breech end) is either extremely fouled OR has has leaded-up.

So....

Lets hear some ideas/suggestions for cleaning off old fouling and lead. If you look through the barrel it shines. But if you look real careful, you can notice that the lands/grooves are very slight and if you scrap (with a hard point) you can get 'black stuff'. So I'm convinced that I have foulding/leading of the toughest kind.

And YES, I'm scrubbing/brushing A LOT to get this stuff out. But spending the next several weeks scrubbing and hoping to get it out is a poor plan (in my opinion). So, what have YOU done to remove those tough, stubborn barrel stains that doesn't take hours and hours of elbow grease???

Thanks!!

-Mike

[Ron/The Old Reb]

Bootise
Try Barnes CR10, fallow the directions on the bottle. Don't use it in the house unless you plan on sleeping outside with the dog.

[jonk]

Mix equal parts vinegar and hydrogen peroxide. Plug the barrel, fill it up, and let it sit 5 minutes. Follow by a good brushing, water rinse to get out the residue, dry, then go at it with Kroil.

You do NOT want to let this mix sit in the bore too long, it will etch the metal, but it's the gold standard for lead.

If that doesn't appeal, I'd strongly suggest a Lewis Lead Remover kit. Brass mesh patches that will mechanically scrape anything out.

With either, it's not a bad idea to then soak the barrel in Kroil or Seafoam Deep Creep (actually, I like it more than Kroil) and let it sit for a few days, then swab it out.

[Kevin Tinny]

Sorry to appear contradictory, but:

A Phd chemist that was head of the Chemical Engineering Society east of the Mississippi and holder of many patents, told me in strong terms never to use hydrogen peroxide!

He was an accomplished, NMLRA record holder and lifelong BP expert who considered the use of peroxide to be an old wives tale. Anyway, the peroxide does nothing good that cannot be accomplished better with penetrating oil. The bigger issue is that corrosion may be UNDER any leading or IN pitting that has lead on top. He used ONLY KROIL or similar proven products to get UNDER and LIFT the leading. KROIL is relatively fast acting, but TIGHTLY plug the bore and let the stuff sit for a few days. If it doesn't come loose, there's something else there.

His cleaning solution was some sort of wetting agent like rug shampoo and ROOM temp water. He never poured hot water into a bore because it can promote surface rust and besides, COOLER water works just fine on salts. Remember, chemical reactions double or halve in speed for each 10 degrees centigrade. Hot water just increases the risk of rust as it dries.

Respectfully,
Kevin

[hp gregory]

kevin heard a tale about folks using mercury to remove lead back in the old days. any truth to that. hp

[Gary B]

Shooters choice, mixed 50/50 with Kroil. soak a patch and run back & forth in the bore, let sit 1/2 hour, brush repeatedly.
Final clean your usual way and oil. Always works for me.
Hope this helps,
Gary B.

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello:
HP: Heard from one fellow in the 70's at Friendship that tried it. He had access to enough to fill the bore. He tapped a wooden plug in the breech plug end, stood the barrel up and filled the bore for an overnight session. Next morning his floor was covered in mercury that soaked THROUGH the pores of the plug and the leading remained. That much mercury would cost a lot these days.

As for Shooters Choice, I refrain from ANY cleaner with ammonia after finding BORETECH's "Eliminator" solution. Interestingly, absolutely NO ammonia in it or formed via chemical cleaning, regardless of what you might sniff. And it contains monoethylene amene (sp?). That was a photo chemical previously available from Kodak. That chemical forms a copper complex that simply lifts copper off steel in a couple swabbings over a few minutes time. But, it reacts with brass jags and brushes thus leaving blue residue from cleaning tools that appears to be from a copper fouled bore. There are anodized aluminum tips that fit Dewey rods to avoid a telltale residue. IN ALL MY YEARS OF SHOOTING, ELIMINATOR HAS TO RANK WITHIN THE TOP 2 OR 3 NEATEST THINGS! It simply "wipes away" copper with only a few patches and NOTHING IN IT WILL HARM A BORE!

Mixing or contaminating any ammonia containing cleaner with CLP or other exotic solutions can etch a bore; ask Boots Obermeyer!

So in place of Shooters Choice, try Eliminator. I haven't for leading. I just use straight Kroil. Even RIG will get under leading if left long enough - 4 years by experience with a terribly leaded 38 Officers Model left home during my Naval junket. Returned home, pushed a tight patch through and had ribbons of lead push out.

Very nice to see you are still shooting, HP. You were one of the best shots I ever saw at Friendship. You know WHO my chemist friend was - Phil Orem - a brilliant person!

Love,
Kevin

[Pat in Virginia]

I have used 0000 steel wool over a cloth patch in a lightly oiled barrel to remove lead, etc. from old military rifles. Turns out Lee Shaver (gunsmith, coach of the US Long Range Muzzle Loading team, and one of the best LRML shooters in this country) also does that in his gunsmith business. He put an article in the May issue of the Single Shot Exchange of which he is the editor/owner that describes his process.

"Clean and oil the bore first, then save the patch for the next step." You run the tight oily patch down the barrel a few times after it is clean. You unroll enough 0000 steel wool to cover the patch and start the two down the bore on the jag. You should have to bump the handle of the rod to get it going. He says it takes him 10 or 15 minutes to clean the lead out of the worst leaded barrels using this technique. A few strokes will do it for average loaded barrel. Figure on having to replace the patch and 0000 after a bit when the going is heavy.

Lee also uses this technique for breaking in a barrel. He observed that barrels he had treated this way seems to lead less after the treatment. He can wear out a pad or two of 0000 steel wool using this approach. 0000 steel wool is not a cutter it is a polisher and polishing is what Lee says needs to happen to a barrel to break it in. He puts it this way "if the operation you are doing to the barrel cuts - it is not breaking it in." "we are trying to break in a barrel by smoothing the surface, not cutting."

"How well does it work you might ask? On a few occasions I have built a new rifle and taken it to a match without ever having fired the rifle. All have performed flawlessly in their first match and several times I won the match or set a record with them. On one occasion, I set a new 300 yard range record with the 1st thirteen shots out of a barrel."

Something to think about.

Oh, mercury fumes can be quite harmful and deadly overe time. I wouldn't advise using it (mercury/quicksilver) to clean the lead out of a barrel.


Pat in Virginia

[jonk]

Sorry to appear contradictory, but:

A Phd chemist that was head of the Chemical Engineering Society east of the Mississippi and holder of many patents, told me in strong terms never to use hydrogen peroxide!

He was an accomplished, NMLRA record holder and lifelong BP expert who considered the use of peroxide to be an old wives tale. Anyway, the peroxide does nothing good that cannot be accomplished better with penetrating oil. The bigger issue is that corrosion may be UNDER any leading or IN pitting that has lead on top. He used ONLY KROIL or similar proven products to get UNDER and LIFT the leading. KROIL is relatively fast acting, but TIGHTLY plug the bore and let the stuff sit for a few days. If it doesn't come loose, there's something else there.

His cleaning solution was some sort of wetting agent like rug shampoo and ROOM temp water. He never poured hot water into a bore because it can promote surface rust and besides, COOLER water works just fine on salts. Remember, chemical reactions double or halve in speed for each 10 degrees centigrade. Hot water just increases the risk of rust as it dries.

Respectfully,
Kevin
While I respect his (and your) opinion, I have SEEN (in the case of a 1911 barrel removed from the gun) stubborn lead streaks come out with the vinegar/peroxide routine, that scrubbing with steel wool and penetrating oils wasn't touching. In fact, it came out as a slurry within minutes of applying the solution.

If you want to argue that it isn't good for the gun, given the acidity of the vinegar, and the ionizing effect of the peroxide, I'd agree with you. But every badly leaded barrel I've tried it on came clean, within minutes- accompanied by a splooge of gray/black paste.

Be that as it may, I have yet to see leading on any skirmish gun. Occasionally light antimony wash on some guns using hard lead, but that's it, and it wipes out with a few patches of hoppes after a normal cleaning. Given the obduration properties of soft lead, low velocity and low pressure, lots of lube, and the natural lubricity of the black powder, it just usually isn't an issue. I'd wonder if you're seeing 'black stuff' if it isn't more impacted baked in charcoal than anything else?

For that matter, I have yet to see the need for a brush for clean up for any gun, other than stubborn smoothbores.

[Michael Bodner]

Many great ideas - Thanks and keep them coming.

Like I said in the original, 'something' is clogging up the barrel - Could be lead, could be fouling.

Any idea for extra-stubborn fouling???

Any comment on the effectivness of a 50/50 peroxide and vinegar soaked patch instead of flooding the barrel?

-Mike

[B-Davis]

I don't know if you want to consider it, but there may be another option. I was told by another member in the N-SSA to try electroylsis. (?) It is an easy process, and I restored a pretty darn rusty and dirt embedded model 1861 doing this.
Basically, you take a small battery charger, a PVC tube sealed on one end, and an old piece of scrap iron and you have a cleaner. You fill the tube with water and add about one table spoon of washing soda to every gallon. Now, I would double check this before you begin (You tube has videos of how to do this) but you put the negative end on the barrel and attach the positive end to the piece of iron. Make sure the piece of iron and the barrel do not touch each other. Now plug in the battery charger and leave it go for about 24 hours. When you unplug and pour out the water, it will have this goopy gunk in the water, it is all of the garbage that was in the barrel!
As I said, I would double check on google, just type in elctroylisis, there are hundreds of sites dedicated to this.
Bryan Davis

[bob2ovi]

I use Chior Boy ( spun copper) wrapped around a stiff bore brush and JB
Bore cleaner................ works for me.

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello, again:
Good advice on either 4/0 soft steel or copper wool, providing leading in the corners of the grooves is removed. The only way to be sure is to examine the corners with a bore scope. Be prepared to see lots of tool marks, etc. The Hawkeye scope is good if you are using a breech loader because the scope's reach is about 18". I've used Lee Shaver's method with good results, but if something remains in the corners, I soak it out with Kroil. Not to side track ourselves---- but fire-lapping can also get troublesome, stubborn stuff out of corners. My longstanding concern about leading that DOESN'T seem to reduce accuracy --- is what's percolating under it! Firing trad BP and developing leading can produce leading over fouling in micro crevices. No barrel is entirely free of these, even buttoned ones that have been lapped. I frequently gave my lead bullet barrels an insurance cleaning with JB paste. Then scoped to be extra sure and Kroil after that to lift stuff out of the micro crevices. This may be over kill for muskets unless there is pitting from inadequate cleaning.
Regards,
Kevin

[Michael Bodner]

I'll be needing to get some Kroil and get started!

-Mike

[Whitworth Kid]

There is a product called RB17. Use with bronze brush and bore will shine, nothing like it!

[ChrisWBR]

I have personal experience with the White Vinegar and Peroxide solution in deleading a very fouled barrel. It works quite well. Solution went in clear, came out gray and with chunks of lead. Yes, you need to scrub the barrel very thorougly afterwards with solvent and get all of the solution out of it. Leave it in no more than 5 minutes. Also, be careful of the liquid, the solution can be readily absorbed into the skin since the lead is now in solution. I also had used a variety of solvents and brushes which did not get the leading out.
You can also look into the electrolysis kits sold for deleading, but the vinegar/peroxide solution is a lot cheaper and easier to use.



While I respect his (and your) opinion, I have SEEN (in the case of a 1911 barrel removed from the gun) stubborn lead streaks come out with the vinegar/peroxide routine, that scrubbing with steel wool and penetrating oils wasn't touching. In fact, it came out as a slurry within minutes of applying the solution.

If you want to argue that it isn't good for the gun, given the acidity of the vinegar, and the ionizing effect of the peroxide, I'd agree with you. But every badly leaded barrel I've tried it on came clean, within minutes- accompanied by a splooge of gray/black paste.

Be that as it may, I have yet to see leading on any skirmish gun. Occasionally light antimony wash on some guns using hard lead, but that's it, and it wipes out with a few patches of hoppes after a normal cleaning. Given the obduration properties of soft lead, low velocity and low pressure, lots of lube, and the natural lubricity of the black powder, it just usually isn't an issue. I'd wonder if you're seeing 'black stuff' if it isn't more impacted baked in charcoal than anything else?

For that matter, I have yet to see the need for a brush for clean up for any gun, other than stubborn smoothbores.