1853 Enfield Inconsistancy.

[tackdriver]

Once again I am here to ask for help with a kind of problem that only seems to happen to me...

For years I've shot my Italian repro Enfield and the best I could do was to shoot a 2 foot grouping at 100 yards, providing I even hit the target. This is from trying different powders, different grain and amounts from a bench rest. I just assumed this was the best this rifle could do.

Last weekend, I shot free hand at 100 yards, the rifle shot 6 inch groupings all day. Same brand powder, cast bullet etc that I normally use. NEVER before has it shot so well.

It will be a month before I can try it again to see if it was just some sort of cruel fluke, so my question is "Has anyone ever heard of this type of inconsistency in accuracy"? ..... Does it normally take 10 years and 1,000's of shots before these rifles will "season"? (I know it doesn't but I'm clutching at straws here...)

I was using a newly opened can of Goex 3F. But it never shot this well with Swiss. Any ideas of what I should take a look at to see what was different? :confused:

Thanks

[Muley Gil]

What type and size Minie are you shooting? What powder charge?

My first muzzleloader was a Zoli Zouave (Italian made) from the late '60s, bought new. From the bench, it would shoot a three shot 1" group, all day long, at 50 yards. I was using a Lyman 575213 Minie and 45 grains of FFFg DuPont (or Goex, later on). I was lucky in that I didn't have to size my Minies. They were a slipfit in the barrel.

Sure wish I could still shoot like that. :rolleyes:

[Fred Jr]

Hi,

I used a 53 Enfield for many years. I used the shallow based Enfield bullet and 45gr of FFF. Shot great! You might want to check your lead. You must have pure soft lead to get any of these rifles to shoot well. I do believe the three banders like a long heavy bullet. I now shoot a two bander and use the Hogdon bullet sized. But still use pure lead. It shoots much better than I do in my present stage of life!

Good luck,
Fred 109712 TH PA

[tackdriver]

Thanks for the quick response. I use 50g of 3F goex, lyman mould for standard mini ball and commericial lube. This load at least got me on paper a couple years ago. Same batch of pure lead I've been using etc. I sort thru the minis and pull any with voids in the hollow. I size the balls to .576 &.577. Both shoot the same

The ONLY thing I can come up with is that this can of Goex is somehow different than what its been at the past (Like I say, Im clutching at straws here) I will try a different can next time I go out.

I am sure this is just one of those head scratching things and there may not be any good, rational answer. Chances are, I'll go out, use the same stuff and I'll go back to my 2 ft grouping. Ive found on these sites there is usually someone who either knows the answer or can put me on the right track to try and figure these things out.

thx!!

[Maillemaker]

I had a Euroarms Enfield with a .584 barrel that I never could get to shoot worth a darn. But it never "became mysteriously good", either.

I ended up replacing the barrel with a Whitacre barrel. Now off a bench at 50 yards it will make a single hole in the paper 2"-3" wide. I use a RCBS-Hodgdon bullet with 46 grains of powder.

Steve

[Eggman]

My vote goes to Fred. Usually real wide variations means hard lead and tumbling bullets. Make sure there are NO keyholes.
Other then that, your powder charge seems a little strong for an Enfield to me. Mine likes 35 grains fffg/ .575 old style minie. Lube is another factor. You cannot get to much in this child's mind. Add a dollip to the minie base.

[jonk]

I don't have a 3 band, but do have a 2 band, and can echo a lot of what you say; one day the gun shot gangbusters, the next day like crud. I had Bobby Hoyt deepen the rifling and straighten the barrel, and full length glass bedded it. That really helped. It since has been retired for a custom made Fayetteville I picked up last year, but it eliminated the variation.

If you're sure that your minies are properly sized and of dead soft lead, same powder, same caps, etc., I would look at your barrel to wood contact. In doing research on mine, I found that Enfields have a long history of being finicky in this regard; could be that the day it shot so well was a dry day, with no wood swelling. Hence why I full length bedded it (I tried just the breech/bolster area first). Second, make sure your barrel bands aren't pinching things; I ended up making a shim go go under them and thinning the stock slightly to raise the bands a few thousandths of an inch so they weren't pulling down on the barrel; and only tightening the screws enough to keep the bands from slipping. That also helped quite a bit.

Finally, you have to consider, it could have just been a fluke.

[ms3635v]

One other thought...how is the crown on the muzzle? A poor crown may cause inconsistent groups as well.

[tackdriver]

I forgot to mention it is a Hoyt barrel. I was out in the desert at 104', so yup, it was pretty dry. But that's where I usually shoot and get the aforementioned results. I did glass the barrel, but it was the first time I did it and pretty sure I screwed it up. Made no difference. No crowning or bullet key hole. Does shoot better after two fouling shots and I need to let the barrel cool after about a dozen shots.

That is interesting about the banding though. Never gave them much thought and I am sure I never tighten them the same after each cleaning

Frustrating, especially now that I know what the rifle is capable of doing.

Would you guys recommend I send the rifle in (somewhere) to have it "tuned up"? I'd be appreciative of suggestions on where to send it too.

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Have you considered that it may not be so much the physics as the biomechanics? Consider this. We shoot offhand position for virtually every small arm, and it really doesn't much matter whether we are holding a full length rifle-musket, 2-band rifle, carbine, or revolver, while we all can generally attain great results from a bench rest position, it takes much more effort to be consistent when it comes to shooting offhand. If you want to improve your offhand, place a adhesive dot on your bedroom wall about ten to twelve feet away, and every morning when you get out of bed and again every before you go to sleep, pick up your musket, rifle, carbine or revolver, and just make ten dry-fire exercises making sure you use the same technique for each shot as you normally use in shooting. By simply practicing your offhand position in this manner, you will begin to see improvements in your offhand shooting usually within a month, and by continuing this dry-fire exercise, you will notice your groups will get tighter and tighter until you can keep all ten live fire shots within the 10-ring at most any distance up to 100 yards. This is the same exercise as was taught to the members of the All Army Reserve Rifle Team back in the 1970s and 80s, which is where I learned it. Trouble is, if you don't practice your offhand position, you generally won't improve your shooting.

[tackdriver]

What?? It might be MY shooting?.... Just kiddin, that of course was my first thought but over the years I've spent hours and lbs of different brands and grains of powder and lead on a bench rest trying to get this thing dialed in. Even after all this, the load I finally concluded was the best still shoots inconsistently and NEVER as good as it shot this last time. I had never tried adjusting the barrel rings but will do so on my next outing. It's worth a "shot" I suppose.
I am also thinking about having the barrel relined (or replaced...) but it is supposed to be a Hoyt barrel and wouldn't think that it would be the problem... I'll have to do ssome research on which way to go.

[jonk]

I forgot to mention it is a Hoyt barrel. I was out in the desert at 104', so yup, it was pretty dry. But that's where I usually shoot and get the aforementioned results. I did glass the barrel, but it was the first time I did it and pretty sure I screwed it up. Made no difference. No crowning or bullet key hole. Does shoot better after two fouling shots and I need to let the barrel cool after about a dozen shots.

That is interesting about the banding though. Never gave them much thought and I am sure I never tighten them the same after each cleaning

Frustrating, especially now that I know what the rifle is capable of doing.

Would you guys recommend I send the rifle in (somewhere) to have it "tuned up"? I'd be appreciative of suggestions on where to send it too.

In that case, start with the tang screw and bands pretty loose, shoot 5, swab, tighten 1/4 turn, fire 5, repeat. From a bench. Hopefully that's it and you will find tension that is conductive to good accuracy. Then mark those spots; I usually say "X turns from completely tight."

I also would say very few in the N-SSA take the gun apart to clean regularly, maybe just once at the end of the season.

[geezmo]

I'm no expert but I might as well add my 2 cents here. Before you get too radical and tear the gun apart or buy new barrels I'd start with what jonk said. Tweak the tang screw, wipe the bore and don't tear the gun down with each cleaning. Another consideration: if it's as hot and dry as you say, where you are, powder fouling could be a big problem. Try a different lube, try adding Crisco to the hollow base, and try wiping the bore between shots.

Good luck,
Barry

[tackdriver]

Hmmmm NOT taking the gun apart after each use works for me! I usually take it all apart so I can run the garden hose down the barrel...saves on patches. I cant swab between shots. The rifle shoots "best" after its had a few shots through it. Beats me why. Although somewhat skeptical as to whether it will be effective, I am anxious to try the ring adjustment theory. It's as good a guess as any. Unfortunately, I took the gun apart for cleaning after the last shot so I don't have this reference point to start from. Just how tight do you guys tighten the rings? I generally just get them tight enough to hold the ramrod and the tang screw is always tight
Right now Im still going with my theory that the powder I used on this last shoot was magical.......

[Fred Jr]

I only take my barrel off when I happen to shoot it in the rain, which is not very often any more, and when the season is over. When replacing the barrel after I have removed it I put the tang screw in first and tighten until it starts to raise the barrel. Then I back it out until it settles back into the stack. I was shown this by a very good smith when I first started shooting back around 1978. Bands I keep tight but my stack in glassed. If your rifle shoots better after it gets dirty you are possibly using a bullet that is too small. You may want to use a little larger bullet.

Good luck,

Fred

[Fred Jr]

Forgot to say when I first started to compete I was told to remove the barrel and the breech to clean. I had a lot of inconsistency so i went looking for more info. I asked some of the top guns what they did about many aspects of the game. Most don't recommend removing the barrel not to mention the breech.

Fred

[jonk]

All this said, to echo Fred's thoughts and expand- if you've never pulled the breech plug and have fired at least a thousand rounds out of it, I'd say that it should be done. It's an easy enough procedure, but it DOES require a special wrench; or just have a smith knowledgeable about muzzleloaders tackle it.

Then you will see the plug is most likely caked, scaly, rusty, and pitted. Polishing it out won't do much for the accuracy issue, but it will make it easier to clean and reduce the chance of a cook off.

[Stormrider51]

I know this thread is several months old. I hope you got things worked out but if not I'd like to offer a suggestion. I believe you said that you got poor groups from the bench and then shot much better offhand? If that's the case, and considering all the other things you said about load, etc, then there may be a problem with your bench technique or the bench itself. Is the bench solid? Are you resting the gun on sandbags? The support under the fore end should be exactly where your hand would be when shooting offhand. Don't try to hold the fore end with your left hand (if you are right handed). That left hand should be holding another sand bag under the toe of the buttstock. Try to keep your head position and cheek weld where they would be when shooting offhand. Just a thought.

John

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Some folks here may laugh, but seriously, everyone who sights in their rifles or muskets from a bench don't use the same consistent body movements they use when shooting offhand. For example, in shooting highpower prone position from 600 yards, each time you breathe in, the front sight goes down (in your sight picture), and as you exhale that breath, the front sight rises up. From a bench rest position, your breathing often mimicks this same phenomena, where when you breathe in the front sight dips, and as you breath out, the front sight rises again. For those of you like Don Dixon (another former All Army Reserve service rifle shooter), we were taught to employ "rythym breathing" where we breathe in and then out in ever slower breaths until when the sight picture is just perfect, we stop breathing and break the round. In offhand shooting, we also employ the same rythym breathing, but unlike in the prone position (or from a bench rest), when we breathe in the front sight rises with our chest, and sinks with every exhale, being just the opposite of how we breath from a bench rest or prone position. So again, look at the biomechanics of your shooting and make sure that everything you physically do in offhand shooting is consistent, including practicing your offhand shooting. As you will find, the triple bull's-eye targets like we use with the sighter on top and two scoring targets below, your best group is likely going to be on the center bull because if you practice shooting only at a single bull, you may have a change in the point of impact when you attempt to engage targets that are higher or lower than what height targets you are most accustomed to shooting while in practice. If you are serious about your performance, get serious on your practice first.

[tackdriver]

Hi everyone. Guess I should have updated. I thought this thread dead and gone! It (currently) would appear the problem lay with my cast minies. (lyman mould) I switched to the Wilkenson style and things have improved. I even took first place at a CW live shoot near San Diego. HIt a paper plate seven times out of ten at 100 yds using the Wilks. Ok, ok, I had to throw in a little bragging.
I don't know why my minies are so inconsistent. I pour pure lead at the same temp yadda, yadda. I guess I don't hold my mouth right every time I pour.
That's where it stands now. However I wouldn't be surprised if after my next shooting trip I return here to cry on someones shoulder again.

[Stormrider51]

Really glad to hear you solved the problem.

John