Current 1842 smoothbore lock question?

[MR. GADGET]

Anyone looked at the current locks on the 1842?

I picked up a few guns at nationals and when I got home to do the normal clean and grease before I shoot them and see what they will do and what they need I found a problem with the locks.

The locks do not look to be the same as my older guns that I have had for 6-8 years or so.

The big thing is the cut for the sear spring to fit in, all the old ones have the screw hole for the sear spring, and the cut for the tab. The tab points to the center of the screw hole, or kind of inline to it.

These two are angled point off to the side of the hole. The problem is that the sear spring shape puts it on line with the center of the screw hole and the spring comes from the center of the hole.

SO, when you place the spring in the lock, with the rest of the parts or not, just the screw and sear spring, there is no way the tab will line up and fit the slot cut for it.
Only one corner will catch it and not really fit in the slot so it just wants to pop out.
That is how I found the problem, I just greased the lock and was working it, then the spring popped out.
Looked at the other and it was the same way.

If there was a different type of sear spring, like one that would wrap around the screw coming out off the bottom then it may line up better but who knows.

I looked at 4 older locks, all in line, and the 2 new ones are angled with the cut.
As I got it out of the box, much force on the sear and spring will make it pop out and the sear screw is the only thing holding it in.

Anyone else found this? Seen it? I guess the sear spring could be reshaped but should not need to be on a new gun.

[MR. GADGET]

After a few phone calls it looks like the locks are cut wrong.
Will need to return the locks for them to see and fix or replace.
so much for shooting new guns......

[MR. GADGET]

I thought I would bump this.
I have had several phone calls in to them about this problem and still no help.
they state they will look into it and get back yet no one will.
Also called and carried the guns to Taylor's as they were sold from there.
They see the problem, know it is a problem just all their locks are screwed up the same way.

looks like if you buy a repop 1842 you will need to take the lock apart, weld up the cut for the sear screw and mill a new cut in.

Kind of sucks to spend the money you do on these and get a problem that you need to fix before you shoot it.

[Maillemaker]

I assume these are Armisports?

Steve

[MR. GADGET]

I assume these are Armisports?

Steve

Yep the only one making one.

[MR. GADGET]

I assume these are Armisports?

Steve

After many calls and emails.... I just got off the phone with El Crappa firearms....
if you have any problems with any of their products you need to box it up and return it to them.
if you do not have the correct in their eyes dated bill of sale you will pay 50 per hrs for any service they do to the firearm.
They will not let you send back a bad part or even as I ask to buy a replacement lock plate so I can fix it my self.
I checked with Taylor's and they have been very helpful and offered their lock plates but their plates are screwed up also and Crappa does not care and has not offered to replace there parts.

They are still working with them to see how they want to move foward with this problem.
Taylor's has bèen great to deal with but their hands are tied as they do not make the parts and Crappa firearms does not care.

[jonk]

Sorry to hear of your woes, and I agree, an out of the box gun shouldn't need this kind of work.

However, fwiw, when my team bought several armi sports to start with smoothbore shooting, they had all kinds of issues... and that was 5, 6 years ago? Mainly the hammers wouldn't hit the nipples, and our team commander and resident gunsmith had to heat and bend all the hammers.

I'm just saying, quality control with these has been a major known issue for ages now; and since an original 1842 can be had for the price of a new Armi Sport, I wouldn't even bother with them.

[MR. GADGET]

Sorry to hear of your woes, and I agree, an out of the box gun shouldn't need this kind of work.

However, fwiw, when my team bought several armi sports to start with smoothbore shooting, they had all kinds of issues... and that was 5, 6 years ago? Mainly the hammers wouldn't hit the nipples, and our team commander and resident gunsmith had to heat and bend all the hammers.

I'm just saying, quality control with these has been a major known issue for ages now; and since an original 1842 can be had for the price of a new Armi Sport, I wouldn't even bother with them.

Yep...
sad to say with the cost of the repops getting to the point they are it would be best to just get a real one.
the parts are better somewhat easier to find and not a lot of problems.

just a note they still have not fixed the problem with the hammer not touching the nipple.
The tumbler hits the bridle and that in itself is unsafe.
Add in the new problem of the cut for the sear spring being done incorrect and the spring will pop out letting the sear move and fire on its own is just a major problem....

if you ask me the SAC should look at it and ban them from use if they are not fixed or corrected.
I have two that I do not feel safe to use as the spring can pop loose at any point.

[Eggman]

Sorry to hear of your woes, and I agree, an out of the box gun shouldn't need this kind of work.

However, fwiw, when my team bought several armi sports to start with smoothbore shooting, they had all kinds of issues... and that was 5, 6 years ago? Mainly the hammers wouldn't hit the nipples, and our team commander and resident gunsmith had to heat and bend all the hammers.

I'm just saying, quality control with these has been a major known issue for ages now; and since an original 1842 can be had for the price of a new Armi Sport, I wouldn't even bother with them.
Well as for the other side of the coin, I have a new Armi 1842 that's about as perfect as can be including hammer alignment and trigger pull - already sweet. It also has a gorgeous stock that rivals my custom Kentucky. It's so pretty I call her "Gloria." I'm a little leary of the originals - afraid they'll burst.
I recall in 1973 I got an original Spencer hammer from Dixie to replace the one on my Spencer that had a missing spur. The new one did not align. I put it in the vice and bent it (beat it) into proper alignment. Heat the hammer first????????? Never heard of it. What you don't learn on this forum.

[MR. GADGET]

EGG
They do look nice. All have had their problems over the time.
the question is how they address them.
Euroarms Had there problems but you could always call and talk to them, get replacement parts and or repairs they knew the guns.

Talking to Crappa they did not know what the lock was and wanted to know what type ammo the gun uses along with other bs things.


EGG
you mind pulling your lock and getting some pictures of the sear spring cut? If yours is some what new it may show the same problem.

[Maillemaker]

Piece of advice. Not saying it will work, and maybe you already did this, I don't know.

I never bother with front-rank customer service personnel anymore. It's a waste of time. They have no authority and are not empowered to act on your behalf. All they do is answer the phones. Asking to speak to a "supervisor" is generally a waste of time, also. Often times the phone answerers take turns being the manager.

Start at the top. I have done this now three times and it works every time.

First, Google to find out who the CEO of the corporation is.

Second, write a very polite, short letter to the CEO. Explain the problem stating only the facts. Explain your expected course of action from him. In your case, it would be helpful to take and include clear digital pictures of the problem.

Third, guess his email address. Most corporations follow a standard email address convention of firstname.lastname@company.com. Once you find their web site, you have the company.com part of the address. It might also be firstinitial.lastname@company.com. If the guy's name is Robert it might be bob.lastname@company.com. Send your letter from step two to all your guesses. If they haven't set up their email very well, you should get a bounce from all the incorrect addresses. If they have set up their email to not respond to bad email addresses you might not get any responses at all.

If you get a "hit", you will probably get an email back from the CEO. Typically this email is cc'd to some subordinate. The email may not address you directly - it may address the subordinate saying something like, "Mr. Jones, please address Mr. Smith's concerns."

At this point, you're pretty much home free. The CEO is not going to fix your problem. But he is going to assign the task to someone in the company with instructions to "fix this problem", and nobody in the company is going to turn down a direct order from the CEO. It's pretty much a surety that the person who is going to be handling your problem will have the authority to actually address your problem.

I've done this to break a contract with AT&T cell phones back in the 90's when I moved to a new state that had no coverage where my house was. I've done this to get my mother out of some $600 of fees they tried to charge my mother when she canceled her DSL internet and phone service after being a customer for 20 years in favor of cable internet. And I've done it to resolve issues with my kids schools.

If you have a serious customer service issue, or a non-standard problem, don't bother trying to go through the rank and file. Generally it's a waste of time.

Steve

[MR. GADGET]

Steve
there have been several calls and email going back to just after spring nationals over the two guns in question.
Also taylor's has contacted them about their guns and extra lock plates.
They have also gotten no help and can not find what they should do about their faulty parts.
in short they offered to look at the guns if I shipped both complete guns and a bill of sale.
Then it is up to them if and what they do or charge me for repair or replacement of the lock plate.
At one point one of their smiths was saying the parts depend on who made them and bow much wine they were drinking at the time....

All I ever ask or wanted was two lock plates that are correct and work...

So it looks like normal if you want something done you need to do it yourself.
sucks needing to work on two new never fired guns to make them safe..

maybe I should go to youtube show the defect and what happens and if you bang the stock with your hand the spring pops loose and the sear will move making the hammer drop without pulling the trigger...

I have not shot them as they are not safe..

[Eggman]

EGG
They do look nice. All have had their problems over the time.
the question is how they address them.
Euroarms Had there problems but you could always call and talk to them, get replacement parts and or repairs they knew the guns.

Talking to Crappa they did not know what the lock was and wanted to know what type ammo the gun uses along with other bs things.


EGG
you mind pulling your lock and getting some pictures of the sear spring cut? If yours is some what new it may show the same problem.

Appears as you describe. No tendncy to pop out yet but if it ever does I'll reshape the slot.

[Blair]

It seems that Chiappa/Armi Sport contract out to the lowest bidder on parts, about ever four or five years.
It is a cost thing to them, makes no difference if those part fit or not. I honestly believe Taylor's & Co will try to help. But they can do little if the parent Co. wont help.
They (Chiappa) don't seem to care if you have a problem or not. They will not listen to you... or anyone for that matter... if it means it may cost them money to make it right! You the buyer, are on your own!
(Just my appraisal of what I have seen them do in the past)
Let them eat their own garbage, shop somewhere else.
My best,
Blair

[MR. GADGET]

Appears as you describe. No tendncy to pop out yet but if it ever does I'll reshape the slot.

I do not think your is as bad as mine yet still the same problem.
if you ever take it out it it a pita to get back in and stay.

[MR. GADGET]

It seems that Chiappa/Armi Sport contract out to the lowest bidder on parts, about ever four or five years.
It is a cost thing to them, makes no difference if those part fit or not. I honestly believe Taylor's & Co will try to help. But they can do little if the parent Co. wont help.
They don't seem to care if you have a problem or not. They will not listen to you... or anyone for that matter... if it means it may cost them money to make it right! You the buyer, are on your own!
(Just my appraisal of what I have seen them do in the past)
Let them eat their own garbage, shop somewhere else.
My best,
Blair

Just to be clear taylor's sells what they are shipped...
Taylor's has done a bunch to help and they are getting screwed as they have locks and lock plates they will not sell due to the defect.
They are great to deal with.

and as you said the locks I have from 5 years back are great and finished great.
the new one are not finished good or built correct.

[Maillemaker]

there have been several calls and email going back to just after spring nationals over the two guns in question.

Calls and emails to whom? CEO or some phone flunkey?

Steve

[MR. GADGET]

Calls and emails to whom? CEO or some phone flunkey?

Steve

Can not get the CEO but working on that.
Taylor's has also, talked to several of their contacts thinking they would have weight do to the number of items they buy.

just had someone offer to drop in to their place I Ohio.
so that may be the corse of action. I can give him the locks or guns at nationals maybe mail the locks to him to carry in.

[R. McAuley 3014V]

It seems that Chiappa/Armi Sport contract out to the lowest bidder on parts, about ever four or five years.
It is a cost thing to them, makes no difference if those part fit or not. I honestly believe Taylor's & Co will try to help. But they can do little if the parent Co. wont help.
They (Chiappa) don't seem to care if you have a problem or not. They will not listen to you... or anyone for that matter... if it means it may cost them money to make it right! You the buyer, are on your own!
(Just my appraisal of what I have seen them do in the past)
Let them eat their own garbage, shop somewhere else.
My best,
Blair

SAY IT ISN'T SO, PLEASE!

Unfortunately, Blair is correct on this one! A few months back, I ordered a couple of the Harpers Ferry marked locks from Taylor's & Co and after a considerable wait, I received them in the mail only to discover that they were not even stamped correctly with the Harpers Ferry markings... but were not only marked Springfield... they did not even have the eagle-stamping on them. But I will say this for Taylor's & Co, they refunded my money on the locks once I returned them, and when I re-ordered, they double-checked the order to insure the locks were correctly marked. Of course, I believe they discontinued the replacement locks with the HF markings though. A "QA" problem, I imagine.

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii305/rmac1023/M1842pics001_zpsaa383c4c.jpg

[MR. GADGET]

Ok good news.
I have said screw them and come up with a fix that works.
The only cost was one sear spring that I need to replace as it broke testing it.
What I did was take a scrib and mark the correct location of the spring as it should be.
After that removed the sear and sear spring. Using a very hard small punch I started a line for the location of the slot. It starts in new metal and ends in the old cut.
Then working that line with the punch made a small v slot. Moving to a larger chisel about the size of the overall slot cut.
after the metal was worked and a clear slot I used a hardened flat blade screwdriver head that was reshaped some to force a square flat bottom to the slot.
Only thing left was to file and stone the surface smooth and test fit.
The sear spring popped in place just as it should easy as can be.
Also would not move out and the sear spring broke testing to make sure.
So I pulled out an extra I had popped it in place and everything is 100%.

Funny
after that I sent Taylor's an email telling them I said screw it and fixed both on my own.
He replied that Crappa emailed them said now they know it is a problem and offered a fix.
The same thing I did. Cut a new slot with a punch and hammer.
They wanted to know if they just wanted to fix them there......

So there it be.
You buy a new gun fight to get service and end up fixing it on your own so they can be shot.

Please be clear taylor's has been great and tried all they could.

on to find a new sear spring as taylor's is out of stock.......

[Timmeu]

I live near Dayton, Oh and stopped in at Chappa's facility. The folks there will not work with you face to face. You cannot buy anything there. Kind of a weird set up. They are located in a tougher area of the Dayton region for what that is worth.

[MR. GADGET]

These are pictures before I fixed it so you can see the problems.
Old on right and works fine, new on left.

THe old one, is one I got as a extra for my other guns time frame maybe 3-4 years back. maybe a little longer.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh172/biggadget/20140521_203132_zpsd315f24f.jpg

Old clean cut slot for spring.
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh172/biggadget/20140521_203045_zps13cb6b58.jpg

New batch, you can see marks on it, this is as I got the new gun with this lock.
You can see marks as they tried and retried to get the spring in place before they could get it to stay in place long enough to ship it.
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh172/biggadget/20140521_203040_zps3ff6e2bc.jpg

Old good on left bad new on right
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh172/biggadget/20140521_202650_zpse7181d59.jpg

[MR. GADGET]

Bad cut you can see it is not even close to being in line with the sear spring screw.
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh172/biggadget/20140521_202713_zpsf3a10bcd.jpg


Good pointing to the sear spring screw.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh172/biggadget/20140521_203045_zps13cb6b58.jpg

[Eggman]

Such an easy fix. Can't believe they haven't done it.

[MR. GADGET]

Such an easy fix. Can't believe they haven't done it.
You need to care before you do anything...
one would think that is the first step.

I even in a phone call offered to buy two lock plates that were correct yet they blew me off wanting the full gun back....

[Eggman]

You need to care before you do anything...
one would think that is the first step.

I even in a phone call offered to buy two lock plates that were correct yet they blew me off wanting the full gun back....
This may seem a bit weird but these little flaws in the Italian guns are just normal to me. I think back to an 1803 Harpers Ferry repro from Navy Arms (Zoli) I bought in 1975. Basically once you scrapped the surface hardening off the frizzen (maybe 30 shots) you were through -- until you got the frizzen properly hardened. And if you wanted quick ignition you also needed to install a touch hole liner. And of course you always need to tune the lock. So I guess the bottom line is, if you want to save some money and shoot an Itallian repro, make friends with a skilled gunsmith.
Now here's the other side of the coin; how do you like your new Hawken rifle from Thompson-Center?? Oh that's right, they don't make traditional rifles any more -- just in-lines. Well then, how do you like that new Plains Rifle you just bought from CVA?? Oh that's right, they don't make traditional rifles anymore either, just in-lines. It's just as well - we in the N-SSA aren't happy unless our guns are equipped with a scope and camo motiff --- well maybe not.
I love the Itallian guns flaws and all. They look right and they're safe (original muzzle loaders that have sat around 150 years always give me the quesies).
And another thought, maybe we need to thank our reenactor buddies for providing the buying power that keeps these guns coming.

[MR. GADGET]

You have a good point...
But this is not 1975 and the guns are not 75 to 150$ anymore.
they are in the 750 to 1500 range.
Italy has some of the best gun builders and tradesman as any.
if you can get a top of the line handgun or rifle that will shoot out of the box for 20 to 30k rounds like the m92f or some of the shotguns and bolt guns..... why can they not make a gun that is safe and will shoot out of the box I the same price range.

[Eggman]

Stay on 'em Jon!!!

[Southron Sr.]

If it were me, being a distinguished graduate of "Bubba's School of Advanced Home Gunsmithing," a possible solution would be to drill and tap two 8/32" holes for headless 8/32" screws on the INSIDE to the lockplate to hold the upper portion of the sear spring (one screw on each side of the spring' upper limb) in the right position.

You might have to throw the flame of a propane torch on the spots you intend to drill the holes to soften up the metal of the lockplate because it is probably casehardened or heat treated.