New to these guns, don't know where to start

[Russ E]

I'd like to try shooting a gun I recently acquired, but I'm not sure where to start. All my experience with muzzleloaders so far is with patched round balls. I have no experience with conical bullets, or with casting.

It's a .58 Armi-Sport 1853 3-band Enfield, three groove. A check with the cleaning rod showed a 1:48 twist. It has the flip-up ladder sight graduated to 1100 yards (yeah, sure). The longest range I have access to is 200 yards, but after I've done that for a while, I'd like to go a little farther, maybe 300 or 400, but I'd have to find a place out in the boonies for that. 200 is my limit for now, but I have a feeling that will be plenty for a while. I'd like to see what kind of accuracy I can get out of this gun.

I got it used at a pawn shop in very good condition, the bore is pristine. It has a Spitfire nipple, and I have a tin of RWS musket caps for it. I read an article in one of the current gun magazines about slugging the bore with melted wax instead of lead, so I tried that (I don't have the means to do it with lead), but I couldn't get accurate measurements from it with my caliper. The factory specs say it's a .580" bore with .004" grooves. I tried taking a measurement inside the muzzle with the caliper and I actually got a solid reading of .580"; couldn't get that with the wax slug. But I don't know if that's really an accurate measurement.

I have a bag of 50 bullets from Track of the Wolf someone gave me, they're two-groove, 530 grain, hollow base .577" Enfield bullets, I think cast from the Lyman 577611 mould. I measured a few of the bases and got different readings, but they seemed to average .577". I tried a couple in the muzzle for fit and they feel like they'll go down with a little resistance. I'm posting all this info because I've heard the fit of the bullet is critical to accuracy, but I don't know how, so I figured these details would be important. Is it supposed to be a tight fit? Loose?

I'd like to start casting my own bullets for this gun, but I don't know how to decide which bullet mould I will need. Someone said you need a bullet sizer to do any accurate shooting. What exactly is a bullet sizer, and where do I get one?

I'm thinking about ordering a 20 lb. Lee Production Pot IV, because I heard it's big enough to use with a ladle or with the bottom pour spout and I thought it would be good to have both options available (unless someone can recommend a better one that won't break the bank). I'm currently investigating several sources of lead. Should I also get a scale to help determine if any bullets have voids in them?

I'm down to a couple of cans of GOEX, I'll have to order another case soon. I've found a couple of places that have decent prices. I should use 2F in this gun, right? What other equipment will I need?

Sorry for all the questions at once, but this is new territory for me, and it seems a bit more complex than the old roundball.

[bubblehead]

Boy did you just open a great big can of worms, bout the only thig you forgot to mention was (dare i say it ? yes i will) LUBE !!!!! (here we go again). :o every question you asked can and probley will be answered by members of this forum (i'll bet in several different ways on every point :wink: . the only advice i'll give you is to listen to what everybody says then take little pieces of that knowledge and figure out for your self what works the best for you and your individual gun.

and rember the most important part HAVE FUN DOIN IT

[Russ E]

Oh, yeah. I forgot lube...


Green

[paul w/McGregor's 385V]

Russ,
Welcome to the FAQ of all FAQ.

Truth is you are asking in the one forum where eventually you will find the information and suggestions to get it going.

Bore: .580 sounds close enough to start.

Bullet: Lyman 575213NS is an option, Wilkerson MkII from North East Trader is another.

Sizing: Recommend you try with the .577 to start as your bore might not be ,580, but .579. Jerry Harman (check postings for address) makes good ones. For target accuracy, sizing the bullet .001-.002 below the bore size is the practice.

Powder: FFg, FFFg charge 40gr-50gr for 50/100yd 50gr-60gr for 200yd

LUBE!!!: best advice here is to follow Lefty's postings per the Big Dummy as found by a search of the postings.

The Lee pot is a fair size to start with. Properly cast bullets will normally not have voids, but will vary slightly in weight as the mould heats and cools in use. A scale will allow you to sort by weight for consistency at longer ranges.

Lead: closer to pure the better.

Take care and be safe
pfb

[Terry Davis 10639]

Russ,
Welcome to the FAQ of all FAQ.

Truth is you are asking in the one forum where eventually you will find the information and suggestions to get it going.

Bore: .580 sounds close enough to start.

Bullet: Lyman 575213NS is an option, Wilkerson MkII from North East Trader is another.

Sizing: Recommend you try with the .577 to start as your bore might not be ,580, but .579. Jerry Harman (check postings for address) makes good ones. For target accuracy, sizing the bullet .001-.002 below the bore size is the practice.

Powder: FFg, FFFg charge 40gr-50gr for 50/100yd 50gr-60gr for 200yd

LUBE!!!: best advice here is to follow Lefty's postings per the Big Dummy as found by a search of the postings.

The Lee pot is a fair size to start with. Properly cast bullets will normally not have voids, but will vary slightly in weight as the mould heats and cools in use. A scale will allow you to sort by weight for consistency at longer ranges.

Lead: closer to pure the better.

Take care and be safe
pfb

Lyman, RCBS and a few other makers make molds of different styles of minnie balls. I use a Lyman 315 grn wad cutter which is nice and light and does not waste as much lead as the heavier bullets, but we are only shooting at 50 and 100 yards for competition. If you are trying at 200+ yards, you might find a heavier longer bulllet stablizes better over long ranges.

As paul mentioned, there are several people who make the sizing dies for the bullets. You can either buy a push through kind, which is basicaly a hollow donut with the ID machined to the size you want, and you drive the bullet through. You then must lube in a seperate operation.

If you have or aquire a Lyman or RCBS lubrisizer, it is basically a press that you put the sizing dies in, and it not only sizes the bullet, but with the crank of a handle lubes the bullet as well. Much faster and more efficient if you have a lot of bullets to do. Paul mentioned Jerry Harmon, but Jerry sold his equipment and no longer makes dies. The guy who took over is Ray Smith, but I cannot find his contact info right now.
If you want a die from him, you call him, tell him what diameter you want, and what type of bullet it is for.

As for lubes, lubes for modern bullets are much harder than black powder guns normally like. If you are shooting just a few shots between cleaning, I have not found much difference, but if you are shooting many shots between cleaning, it can matter. You'll want something softer than modern lubes, but not runny on warm days. If you have to use a heater plate on your lubrisizer (assuming you buy one) the lube is probably too hard for black powder.
In my guns, proper bullet diamter and consistant bullet seating have been the biggest factors in accuracy. Too small, and the bullet does not expand enough to grip the rifleing, too big and you need 3 men and a small boy to drive it down. As mentioned, the lead must be pure or damn close or the bullet skirt will not expand properly either.

I have a 20 lb lee pot, and the only complaint I have is that it leaks, and requires constant fiddleing with the valve pin to stop it. I have been splashed countless times in the face by dripping lead, so wear eye protection. It hurts too. I also have the smaller pot, the one with the angled valve pin, and it does not seem to leak, but I have an older one which required modification to provide enough clearance under the pot for a mold with a base plug. Newer ones may have more clearance.

Good luck, and remember it is fun. Sometimes with rifle muskets you need to keep repeating that to yourself.

[Mike McDaniel]

If you're going to mould Minie balls, don't bother with a bottom pour pot. Just get a ladle...you'll end up using one eventually.

[Muley Gil]

I have used an electric pot, but prefer a simple lead pot, heated by a camp stove, and a ladle.

Uless you intend to cast a lot of bullets, the hand sizing dies are much less expensive and take up less room.

[Ken Hansgen, 11094]

Russ, If you can get down to Northern Calif sometime, you might want to visit one of the skirmishes of the Blue-Gray Skirmish Assn to ask questions and see how it's done. Their website for more info is http://blue-gray.us/. Scan down and click on Events for their schedule. Looks like they will have a skirmish at their Camp Sixbits range, downhill from Sonora, next weekend.

[Russ E]

Can someone post a link to a sizer I would need? I've checked the websites for Lee, Lyman, RCBS, and Midway, but I can't find any sizers larger than .512.



Bullet: Lyman 575213NS is an option...

How do I know the bullet's diameter? Is it the first three numbers, .575?

[Terry Davis 10639]

Can someone post a link to a sizer I would need? I've checked the websites for Lee, Lyman, RCBS, and Midway, but I can't find any sizers larger than .512.


[quote="paul w/McGregor's 385V":2o0c84fw] Bullet: Lyman 575213NS is an option...

How do I know the bullet's diameter? Is it the first three numbers, .575?[/quote:2o0c84fw]

The sizers you are looking at on those sites are just sizing dies. You would need to buy the lubrisizer to use them. They only go up to .512 or there about from those sources. As we said, you would need to contact a custom maker like Ray Smith to have one made for a larger size.

IF you want the push through kind, there are vendors that make them, but I dont have any contact info handy. Ray might also make those too, I dont know. The volume of bullets I size and lube a push through would be a PITA.
As far as casting, I find the ladle a pain. The reason so many like it is that the pour is slower, which makes it easier for air to escape reducing voids. If you use a bottom pour, you have to be more careful and develop a technique to avoid the void. Again, the number I do, I use a bottom pour and dont' get many voids, but I have a system. I do have to throw a few back, but the number I can cast in an hour vs the number I throw back is well worth it.

[mikea]

Russ-
I agree with all that's been posted so far, but here is an attempt to give you the whole 9 yards We all have different ways of doing things, different equipment, etc., but there are two very basic things:
1) The minies should be cast from PURE LEAD.
2) They should be sized from .001 to .003 inches less than the land to land bore diameter of the gun you are shooting.
I went down the road you are starting on some years ago and had nothing but frustration until I had the good fortune to run into a veteran N-SSA member who found my problem and helped me out.
I had bought a nice used Parker-Hale 3 band Enfield and had purchased bullets and a ".575" inexpensive sizer from a well known company (not Track of the Wolf). The ".575" sizer was the only size they carried and what they recommended in their catalog. The results at 50 yds. were that about a third of the bullets made a large group high in the target, another third keyholed all over the target and the other third went to parts unknown.
The N-SSA member who helped me out first tested the fit of the bullets in the muzzle and said that the sizing felt OK. (Turned out that The bore diameter was .577 and the ".575" sizer was actually .574, so I was sizing at the end of the the .001 to .003 range. He then tested the bullets by trying to scratch them with his thumb nail and trying to dent the skirt of a bullet by squeezing between thumb and forefinger. Turned out the bullets were hard as rocks - definitely not cast from pure lead which would have scratched and dented easily.
I later got some bullets actually cast from pure lead from the people I will mention next and VIOLA! - problem solved.
What causes these guns to shoot poorly is that the bullets are either too small for the bore and/or they are too hard, and the skirts don't enlarge enough to properly engage the rifling
Some sutlers who will have most of what you need:
S&S Firearms - has link on N-SSA website - go to homepage & click
"links of interest". Get their catalog - can email, call or download. Has lots of stuff we use.
North East Trade Co., John DeWald. 1980 John Brady Dr., Muncy, PA 17756-8057, Ph (570) 546-2062. Web site with some of his stuff is:
www.northeasttradeco.com (http://www.northeasttradeco.com). I use his very handy lube applicator & lube, cleaning rods and his sizing dies.
Southwest Sutler - has link on N-SSA website. Has some of NE Trade stuff .
For bullets - I have had good luck with:
Pat Kaboskey in Wisconsin - (262) 363-4625 (after 6 pm CST) and Paul Weber in W. VA - (304) 258-4666.
The following is all "what I would have done if I knew then what I know now" :
FIRST: Find out the bore diameter. Best way is to get a gunsmith who has an offset micrometer to slug the bore. Odd #'s of lands/grooves require offset micrometer to measure accurately. If you can have this done at a reasonable cost go this route. Alternates are use of plug guages if you can find someone with then in right size range or use bullets that are sized to right range of diameters as plug guages. What you are looking for is the largest diameter bullet that will slide up & down an inverted barrel from light finger pressure & gravity.
NEXT: Before you buy a mould, get several different types of .58 cal bullets to test - maybe 25 of each. For a 1:48 twist try New Style - should do better with longer bullets. Kaboskey & Weber have a number of different moulds. They may be able to size them for you also. After finding out what bullet(s) your gun likes you can get the mould(s) & cast yourself.
SIZNG DIES: You can get musket bullet sizes from S&S for a Lubrisizer if you want to go that route. I have a Lyman Lubrisizer but don't like it for musket bullets. I prefer the North East Trade sizers that are threaded for use in a reloading press using standard 7/8" thread dies, but can be used without one. They cost more than the "elcheapo's" where you use a wood dowel to push the bullet through, but they are the actual size they are supposed to be & come with a steel flat based pusher. A steel coned pusher for minie's is an option. Beats replacing the wood dowels which break regularly. If I didn't own a reloading press anyway, I would buy a cheap used one to use with these dies. Most painless & quick way to size there is.
RELOADING SCALE: I got an electronic scale, as opposed to the balance beam type, from the beginning. Wouldn't live without it. Understand the guts of most or all these things come from the same source - the cheapest will do fine, +/- .1 gr accuracy all you need. Use for weighing bullets as well as powder charges.
BULLET LUBE & LUBING: Lots of commercial products & homebrew receipes. I started with & like the North East Trade Inside/Outside Luber. Now costs $11.50 & comes with a charge of their MCM lube, which I like, but you can melt out that lube & use the thing with any other lube.
LEAD POTS: I have an RCBS 20 lb. with bottom pour capability. The only thing the bottom pour feature is good for is emptying the pot out. It's worthless for casting minie's & have had to plug it up from the outside due to leaking. If I had to do it over, I wouldn't get a bottom pour pot but I would get a 20 lb - a 10 lb isn't enough for very many bullets.
POWDER - 2F vs. 3F. Most of us use 41 - 48 gr (by weight) of 3F for the 50 & 100 yd. musket shooting we do. Some find their gun/bullet does better with 2F. You would probably want to use the 60 gr. service charge for 200 yds and beyond.
PRELOADED AMMO: N-SSA requires we use preloaded ammo - no loose powder & bullets, and authentic paper cartridges are forbidden for safety reasons. All loading is done on the firing line. One method of making ammo is:
Get .58 plastic tubes from S&S, North East or others. Put in a bag with a dash of talcum powder & shake to coat to stop static cling of powder in tubes. Add powder charge in tubes. Insert sized bullets nose down far enough so it is firmly held, with rear part of bullet sticking out of tube. Dip exposed part of bullet in melted lube (I use Inside/Outside Luber for this). Some also put extra lube and/or Crisco in base.
SAFETY RULES IN LOADING: To begin - fire a cap down range to insure gun not loaded & to clear out flash channel, then fire a cap at ground to see gas move dirt, grass, etc. to make sure flash channel is clear. Leave fired cap on nipple. Put butt of gun on ground with barrel up but not pointed at you. Pull bullet from tube & pour powder down barrel from side. Insert bullet between fingers base down into muzzle. Ram bullet firmly down with ramrod between fingers - NOT IN FIST! If you have to fist the ramrod in loading minie's, something is wrong! Leave fired cap on gun & reload as before. In the entire loading / reloading process, only fingers are over the muzzle, never your hand. Cookoffs - ie., where powder charge goes off while pouring powder in barrel or ramming bullet are very rare but do happen - hence these safety rules, which if followed will prevent more than singed fingers.
Hope all this helps.
Mike A

[John Holland]

Mike A,

That is the best fundamental write up I've seen in quite a long time.

You have answered the basic questions in such a clear and concise fashion, if you don't mind, I'm going to save it so that the next time I help a beginner get started I'm just going to print out what you have written and have them read it first. Well done!

John Holland
44th New York

[dbm]

Good to see you're interested in shooting the Enfield at ranges of beyond 100 yards - something I seldom see mention of from shooters in the USA. Here in the UK the Muzzle Loaders Association of Great Britain (MLAGB - www.mlagb.com (http://www.mlagb.com)) holds National Rifle Championship matches for Enfields at 200, 300, 500 and 600 yards. A club I am in also has an aggregate match for Enfield of 15 shots at each distance, 600 & 800 yards! :) Great fun and a real suprise at what the arm can accomplish.

David

[Edwin Flint, 8427]

David,

We don't mind shooting those distances, just our available ranges tend to limit us. 100 is pretty much the longest at most ranges. There are a few with 200 at enough that you can find one. Beyond 200 is difficult to find.

[R. McAuley 3014V]

We don't mind shooting those distances, just our available ranges tend to limit us. 100 is pretty much the longest at most ranges. There are a few with 200 at enough that you can find one. Beyond 200 is difficult to find.

Ed, that sounds more like an excuse, considering the whole of the British Isles (including Ireland) is only like 2.5% of the geographical area of the United States.

http://www.mongabay.com/igapo/world_sta ... y_area.htm (http://www.mongabay.com/igapo/world_statistics_by_area.htm)

[Greg Ogdan, 11444]

Now, Richard, lighten up. Ed may well not be familiar with shooting those new fangled breech loading thingies. Got to admit though, that the Oak Ridge club may not be that far for him.

[David Kennard 12146]

Come on up to Tennessee Ed.
If ya got somthing that will shoot out to 1000 yds (artillery excluded) I would be happy get you on the range.
Oak Ridge is one of the best ranges in the Southeast.

[Edwin Flint, 8427]

Dave,

Would love to give it a try but it would have to be a weekender. You are 7 + hours away so it's hard to drive up for an afternoon. I may take you up on that one day though when I can arrange time.

Greg, depending on where you are in Ohio, you might be closer to him than I am.

Richard, the nearest range that I know that 1000 yards is on the Gulf Coast, 5-6 hours away, and it's private. There are no public 1000 yard ranges anywhere I know of in the State. Best folks can here do are "simulated" reduced targets. I might one day find an accomodating farmer, but until then, I shoot what I can.

[RaiderANV]

Sir Edward,,,,,if'n yer in me woods any time I gots me ah 1600 yarder not get'n much use on my farm. Sucks to go check the targets :shock:

Been gonna get me a lil camera and a long roll of wire,,,,one day me guesses :roll:

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Richard, the nearest range that I know that 1000 yards is on the Gulf Coast, 5-6 hours away, and it's private. There are no public 1000 yard ranges anywhere I know of in the State. Best folks can here do are "simulated" reduced targets. I might one day find an accomodating farmer, but until then, I shoot what I can.

How close are you to Gilbert, LA? That's where the Eutaw Rifle & Gun Club has a 1,000 yd "public" rifle range. It's about 60 miles SW of Vicksburg. Of course, I realize Emory's place may not offer that much distance, and probably less than the last time I shot over at his backyard the first time he hosted the Aberdeen Skirmish (almost 20 years ago). But 600-800 yds is a excellent distance for the P/53-61 Enfield.

http://rangelistings.com/state.php?state=MS

http://rangelistings.com/state.php?state=LA

[Edwin Flint, 8427]

Pat,

Either get a 4 wheeler to run down range or train the wife and kids to do it for you. :P I am anxious to hear a report on how well your Maynard does at 1600 yards!!!! :P

Richard,

I am about 10 miles from the AL line and closer to TN than to Jackson MS. Another 5 or so hours from here. The best we can do at Emory's is about 200 yards. I no longer have the Enfield. But a Mississippi with LR sights and original 61 Springfield should do when the time comes. I wonder how my Smoothbore would do at that distance :?: :?: :roll: :)

[Russ E]

Sorry, I got sidetracked for a few days. Well, I appreciate all the advice. I'm trying to figure out how to get the bore sized, I don't know a machinist or anyone else that could do those things recommended for me. I'm thinking I'll get it figured out with trial and error anyway, since I'll need to try lots of different bullets. May have to go with trial and error on the sizer, too.

I looked at North East Trade's site, but they don't have any sizers listed.

The ones sold by S&S for the lyman lubrisizer, looks like they go up to .590". Can they be pushed through by hand? I'd like to go that route at first until I can get some better equipment set up.

[Greg Ogdan, 11444]

Russ, If you're going by trial and error, start with the "Big Minie" from Kabosky in .001 steps to check sizing. Once you have that figured out, you can try different bullet designs. Generally, the "Big Minie" will shoot well in anything.

[Russ E]

I found Kaboskey's website, but I didn't see a 'big minie' listed on the bullet page. Do you have the part number?

[Greg Ogdan, 11444]

The lyman number would be 575213, but that is too small if you have a bore over .576. See if a Rapine 580510 is listed.

[Elswickboys]

Russ, When you start to consider making or if buying lube try a couple tubes or blocks of G.B.S. lube. You can get it from Mike Rouch at Maimi Valley Sutler that I know of. It is the lube Craig Bryan Hatfield shot a 97-2x Smoothbore with at Spring Nationals. Can't hardly argue with that. Theres a growing amount of shooters letting them roll with this brand of lube lately. Shoot Straight, Elswick

[Russ E]

See if a Rapine 580510 is listed.

Nope. The closest they have listed is a Parker Hale 58560. There's also an RCBS Hodgdon 580 (no weight listed).

This is just getting more confusing.

[Greg Ogdan, 11444]

Russ,
You can try the Hodgdon, but it is a finnicky bullet; some guns like it and some do not. My personal experience is limited, but I would suggest this. Size the bullet very closely to bore size, use 3F and not 2F powder and probably not less than 50 grains. I know there are those that will argue, but we all have our own opinions. Why not try calling Kabosky and asking for his input? Just a thought.

[Russ E]

Good idea. I'll try that.

[RaiderANV]

The lyman number would be 575213, but that is too small if you have a bore over .576.

Ohhhhhhh,,,,,,,,I dunno boutdat. Mine casts right at .5795