SAC Question

[ssnyder]

IN the approved arms list the Enfield carbine and 1853 are listed as approved (English made). Do the Italian made Parker-Hale muskets need a SAC card?


Thanks
Scott Snyder

[Maillemaker]

See Page 33.

Parker-Hale, Ltd.
Made in England
English Pattern 1858 Naval Rifle (P-58)
English Pattern 1861 Artillery Musketoon
English Rifle Musket Pattern 1853 (P-53)

http://www.n-ssa.org/NATIONAL/SAC_Jan2013.pdf

Steve

[S Myers]

Starting on page 24 of the Approved Arms Manual, you'll find approved English Enfields in various patterns by Armi San Paulo, Armisport Chiappa, Dixie Gun Works, Euroarms, London Armory, Parker-Hale and Pedersoli. If your firearm is manufactured by any of these companies and is in an approved pattern, then yes, it's legal.

[jonk]

See Page 33.

Parker-Hale, Ltd.
Made in England
English Pattern 1858 Naval Rifle (P-5
English Pattern 1861 Artillery Musketoon
English Rifle Musket Pattern 1853 (P-53)

http://www.n-ssa.org/NATIONAL/SAC_Jan2013.pdf

Steve

Certainly true; however this doesn't address the question. Parker Hales made in Italy (which I wasn't aware existed myself) would require a slight modification, so that this read: Parker-Hale, Ltd. Made in England or Italy.

As such, I would err on the side of caution and let John Holland or another SAC member weigh in before I took anything as gospel.

[Maillemaker]

Certainly true; however this doesn't address the question. Parker-Hales made in Italy (which I wasn't aware existed myself) would require a slight modification, so that this read: Parker-Hale, Ltd. Made in England or Italy.

Yeah, but it doesn't say that, so I thought it answered the question. :)

It looks to me like they are specifically approving Parker-Hale Enfields made in England. There is no mention of approval of Parker-Hale Enfields made in Italy.

I'd assume the arm was not approved until someone told me otherwise.

Steve

[ssnyder]

Yeah, but it doesn't say that, so I thought it answered the question. :)

It looks to me like they are specifically approving Parker-Hale Enfields made in England. There is no mention of approval of Parker-Hale Enfields made in Italy.

I'd assume the arm was not approved until someone told me otherwise.

Steve

This seems to come up every few years. I asked it because the phrase "Made in England" was added to the description.

There were three generation of Parker-Haler Enfields made.

Generation 1 was made in England up until the late 70's I think. At that time they started farming out some of the assembly work to Italy. This became the second generation Parker-Hale. If I remember correctly the barrels were still made in England and then shipped to Italy so you have some barrels out there with both English and Italian proof marks.

Eventually all of the production went to Italy for a year or two and then stopped and Parker-Hale limited got out of the musket business.


About 10 years ago Parker-Hale Enfield production started again in the Euroarms factory. One production line turned out London Armory and another line turned out Parker-Hale. (I believe Euorarms bought some of Parker-Hale manufacturing equipment at auction.) The Parker-Hale muskets were made with progressive depth rifling and better case hardening and bluing and overall better fit & finish. The barrels were stamped "Parker-Hale Ltd, Birmingham, England" so I assume some royalty was paid to Parker-Hale Ltd since they were still in business in the UK. I think this production run of the Parker-Hale was done through a deal with Navy Arms/Gibbs rifle co. I remember they had a booth on Sutler row at Fall Nationals the first year there were back in production. Dimensionally the London Armory and Italian Parker-Hale Enfield muskets are the same. I think they continued in production until the Euroarms factory closed. Euroarms had plans to convert all of their Enfield production to use progressive depth rifling but went out of business before that was done. I know that they were being sold by a number of different vendors as N-SSA approved.

There are other members who know the history of this better than I do but I can't remember their names now. Anyway I would suspect that there are as many Italian made Parker-Hales on the line as there are English ones. It would be nice if we resolve this question once and for all.

[John Holland]

Scott,

You have brought up a very interesting point. I believe the Italian manufactured "Parker-Hale" marked versions of the arms in question were in fact manufactured by Armi San Paulo whose manufacturing mark is "GDG", which to some eyes may look like "DDG". Euroarms was the parent organization.

As Sherry Myers, who is a long standing member of the SAC, has pointed out if the arms in question are in fact made by Armi San Paulo they are approved regardless of the use of the "Parker-Hale" name.

If you would care to bring a sample of an Italian manufactured "Parker-Hale" marked example to the Small Arms Office at the upcoming Spring National we would be more than happy to examine it to possibly verify the actual manufacturer. Once this is verified a simple clarification can be made to the "Approved Arms List" to dispel any future confusion.

I must note at this time no skirmisher has ever been questioned on the line by any member of the IG Corps about the use of their "Parker-Hale" marked Italian made arm.

Thank you, and please consider the above request.

John Holland
Chairman, Small Arms Committee

[ssnyder]

John,

I just checked - I have all three - Musketoon, 2 band and 3 band. All of them have the DGD mark on the bottom of the barrel near the breech. I can bring them to the nationals or one of the other skirmishes at the fort (Potomac maybe) since I am local to the Winchester area. I know the SAC committee is kind of busy at the nationals. To add to the confusion since the Parker-Hale and Euroarms barrels were made at the same factory they are interchangeable between the brands. I have seen at least one musket with a Parker-Hale barrel and a London Armory lock. Let me know if you want to see all three muskets or just one of them and if the Potomac or one of the other skirmishes is a possibility.

Thanks

Scott Snyder

[John Holland]

Scott,

The SAC will gratefully take you up on your offer!

I spoke with Wade Huffman, National IG and SAC Inspector, who said he will verify the markings on all 3 arms at any regional skirmish at the Fort. Please take them to Wade at your convenience. He will be available at the next regional skirmish at the Fort, and will most likely post his SAC office hours on the BB prior to the skirmish.

Thank you very much for your assistance in clarifying this for all parties concerned.

Sincerely,
John Holland

[ssnyder]

John,

The mark is actually a D with two GG's. They are superimposed on each other so I have no idea what the order is supposed to be. The mark is on both the barrel and the breech block. I pulled the barrel on my Euroarms Mississippi and found the same marks so we have a winner.

[John Holland]

Scott is correct the marking is "GDG" aka Grassi, Doninelli, and Gazzola.

JDH

[Phil Spaugy, 3475V]

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?41580-THE-PARKER-HALE-ENFIELD-By-Craig-L-Barry&p=244421#post244421

[terrydull]

Did the Italian made ... 2nd gen ... Parker Hale 1853 Enfield's ... marked "Parker Hale" on the lock have progressive depth rifling in their barrels, as the 1st gens did? I didn't see that topic addressed anywhere. I know the two remaining manufactures of the 1853 Enfield have made great improvements to the fit & finish of these weapons to "de-farb" them, I'm more concerned with the mechanics of the lock and the historical accuracy of the barrel specifications.

Thanks!