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David Yossi Snellen
05-06-2008, 02:59 PM
Gentlemen,
I don't own one, so this is just a what if question.
I know some recent evidence indicated that some Rogers and Spencers were used in the War. To my knowledge, no evidence exists of 1863 Zouaves.
They look pretty close to some Confederate rifles (Fayettevilles if I remember). How close are they, and how hard would it be to ''Southernize'' one?
David

Edwin Flint, 8427
05-06-2008, 05:46 PM
I seem to recall reading someone found a dug Remington rifle in the old Petersburg works a year or so ago. I don't know of any documentation, but if it was dug up, it was issued to somebody!

S.Sullivan
05-06-2008, 07:27 PM
If Jim Mayo sees this he can comment with authority. Most all dug in Richmond/Petersburg comes his way.
Steve Sullivan

John Holland
05-06-2008, 10:06 PM
I heard that the "Remington Rifle" in question was actually a "Remington Mississippi".

JDH

RaiderANV
05-06-2008, 11:05 PM
I read an account maybe 20-25 years ago about an officer riding up to the warehouse and demanding better arms for his troops at pistol point. The doors were opened and slightly under 200 arms listed as Remington model 1862 resembling, but not Mississippi rifles, were removed. It was a photocopy of the original document that I read. Didn't say who the officer was or what unit ended up with them.

J Weber 4114V
05-07-2008, 09:21 AM
The story I heard was some were issued to RR and bridge guards rear area units in KY ???

Roger Hansen
05-07-2008, 08:38 PM
If I recall correctly, about 10 years ago North / South Trader published a photo of a '63 Remington dug directly from a dirt roadbed outside Richmond. It stated that the area had been occupied by USCT troops in early '65.

Anyone else re-call.

Roger Hansen

R. McAuley 3014V
05-08-2008, 03:04 PM
CENSORED

Mike w/ 34th
05-08-2008, 05:35 PM
It is possible, but not exactly easy, to turn a Zouave into a Georgia Armory Rifle. Basically, you need M1855 Rifle bands, patch box, and nose cap w/screw, along with a set of "round ear" lock screw escutcheons from a repro 4th Model Enfield rifle-musket, an Enfield rifle trigger assembly and trigger guard, and a lockplate with suitable markings.

It will require a bit of sanding on the stock to make it fit, and acraglass to fill in the gaps where the metal doesn't quite meet. It's really better to start with a '55 Rifle stock blank and custom fit everything. I found the '55 barrel bands will need to be bent in a vise to make them fit the barrel profile of the Zouave barrel. You will also need to set back the shoulders on the stock about 1/4" to account for the difference in width between the Zouave bands and the '55 bands, but the good news is, you don't have to move the band springs.

Email me at martini@rica.net and I'll send you a packet of information that I've collected from folks who helped me with my Georgia Rifle project, including an SAC sheet for the GA Rifle with all the relevant measurements, a parts list, and some other documents. I also have a bag full of those round-eared escutcheons that I got from a sutler who "defarbs" repro Enfields. I'm happy to send you two for the cost of postage and a padded envelope.

Cheers,

Mike

R. McAuley 3014V
05-08-2008, 10:19 PM
CENSORED

05-09-2008, 12:51 PM
These rifles are called "Harpers Ferry Rifles" in original ordnance documents, though I have seen "Harpers Ferry Model 1862" rifle mentioned someplace. According to McAulay, all 10,000 were still in storage at Watervliet Arsenal (their point of delivery) in 1866, and 9,999 were sold to Bannerman in 1901. He names it the "Remington Model 1863 Contract Rifle". I know of no one who knows why the appellation "Zouave" was applied.
If we found an early Bannerman (or maybe Sears or Montgomery Ward) advertisement maybe we would know when the nickname started.

R. McAuley 3014V
05-09-2008, 06:43 PM
CENSORED

Roger Hansen
06-03-2008, 06:00 PM
Richard
I went through about 50 issues of old North / South Traders in the Field Recoveries section (as I remembered it) and only found references to 3 dug 1841s around Richmond; no Remington 63s. I may have been mistaken after 10 years.

Roger Hansen

Terry Davis 10639
06-09-2008, 06:03 PM
Richard
I went through about 50 issues of old North / South Traders in the Field Recoveries section (as I remembered it) and only found references to 3 dug 1841s around Richmond; no Remington 63s. I may have been mistaken after 10 years.

Roger Hansen

Could they have been Remington contract M1841s? If your memory is like mine, and the article mentioned Remington as the manuf. you might have morphed it into 1863 contract rifles.

Terry

Oviedo Minié
06-11-2008, 10:41 AM
Excuse me friends but , what's " Bannerman " ??? Trader? Armoury?
I'm very interested in that subject ( Zouave History ) , and never heard something about Bannerman .
Thanks in advance

Tom Magno, 9269V
06-11-2008, 10:59 AM
In a trip last week to Norfolk on business, I stopped in to see the Casemate Museum at Ft Monroe. I would recommend the museum to anyone in the area - it has some nice artillery pieces.

Within the museum in a case on the wall is displayed a Remington 1863 "Zouave". The identification plate reads that the rifle is (paraphrased) "most likely an "unauthorized" artillery variant of the 1863 Sprigfield, and was carried by Zouave troops when they were at Ft Monroe, and was known by the name 'Zouave' for the troops that carried it." (not an exact quote - but from my memory).

Now, the Zouave doesn't really even resemble an 1863 Springfield as we all know. It borrows the lock and barrel from the 1841 Mississippi. But even so - the museum curator said that the Zouave troops that were at Ft Monroe during the war carried this "Remington rifle variant". The rifle in the case is indeed a Zouave - saw it myself.

He had several photos of the Zouave units at Ft Monroe - but none carrying arms to verify/validate the claim.

Jim Mayo
06-11-2008, 01:32 PM
"most likely an "unauthorized" artillery variant of the 1863 Sprigfield, and was carried by Zouave troops when they were at Ft Monroe, and was known by the name 'Zouave' for the troops that carried it." (not an exact quote - but from my memory).


The "most likely" was enough for me to lable this description as a curator guess. Most of us have seen items in museums that are mis-identified. I think this is one of them. The worst one I ever saw was at another well known museum in the area that had a CS naval cutlass labled as a Pirate sword.

Southron Sr.
06-11-2008, 02:47 PM
The term "Zouave Rifle" was applied to the Italian made REPLICA of the original Remington made rifle. This name was a "marketing tool" dreamed up and employed by Navy Arms in the late 1950's when they started importing the first Zouave replicas into the U.S.

In school Curators are taught how to PRESERVE things. They are also taught how to look up and identify artifacts so they can describe them properly; obviously. that was not done in the case of the "Zouave" on display in the casemate.

When I worked in the Jekyll Island Museum a decade ago we had a display of 20th Century bathing suits in Misletoe Cottage for a short while. Over in one corner thre was an old rusty four foot long, yatch anchor that a shrimper had netted right off the dock at Jekyll and had donated to the museum.

One day in a mischevious mood, I got on the computer and made up a label for the anchor: "Recovered 19th Century Watch Fob" and hung it on the anchor. One lady going thru the display looked at the old rusty anchor, my spurious label and then looked at me and exclaimed: "Why, I never realized they wore their watches when they went swimming!"

That "Zouave" identification is in the same category of my spurious "Watch Fob" identification of that old rusty anchor.

Bob F, 1st NJLA
06-11-2008, 04:32 PM
I don't know how far back the moniker "Zouave Rifle" began, but for sure, Val Forgett or no one else at Navy Arms originated this misnomer. My membership in the N-SSA began in 1956 and the name Zouave Rifle was well entrenched by that time. Val and I were both founding members of Btry B 2nd NJLA in 1958 (now know as the 1st NJLA). We held our meetings at his store so I am familar with the early Navy Arms years. Navy Arms was not even formed yet at that time. Val asked me and several other friends what we thought of the idea of making replica Civil War pistols and my reply was "why would anyone buy a replica when originals don't cost much more"? Poor fellow ignored my best advice!!!!

Bob Fisch

R. McAuley 3014V
06-11-2008, 09:23 PM
CENSORED

RangerFrog
06-11-2008, 11:05 PM
Excuse me friends but , what's " Bannerman " ??? Trader? Armoury?
I'm very interested in that subject ( Zouave History ) , and never heard something about Bannerman .
Thanks in advance

Bannerman was America's first great dealer in surplus arms and other war materiel. At one time you could outfit an entire small army with gear from Bannerman's (and some people actually did!) He owned an island in the Hudson(?) River upon which he built a "castle" from which he sold these interesting things. Early Bannerman catalogs are fascinating (and a little frustrating) to read. Imagine being able to order Gatling guns, Zulu spears, trapdoor Springfields, and Smith carbines, with ammo for all (except the spears, of course) at bargain basement prices. Oh, to be able to go back in time and do that! :roll:

RangerFrog

Oviedo Minié
06-12-2008, 03:05 PM
I'm absolutely agree with you... Thank you very much Rangerfrog !!

R. McAuley 3014V
06-12-2008, 11:10 PM
CENSORED

Oviedo Minié
06-17-2008, 07:18 PM
I've read some interesting opinions about when the Remington Contract Rifle was called " zouave " and why . Craig L. Barry ( " The Civil War Musket : A Handbook for historical accuracy - Lock , stock and Barrel " ) and David F. Butler ( United States Firearms - the First Century 1776-1875 " ) tell us that the Zouave nickname was done only by the "flashy" appearance (Blued barrels and yellow brass bands and finishing) , just like the "flashy" Zouaves troops uniforms .
They also stressed that must be done because the French Zouaves troops in Argelian dessert used a similar two bands rifle ( " fusil Ã* rempart modele 1840 ") as you can see in this link I attached.

http://www.alienor.org/ARTICLES/Fusils/ ... sion04.htm (http://www.alienor.org/ARTICLES/Fusils/ArmesPercussion04.htm)

Currently I'm writting an article for a Spanish Guns magazine about that subject , and the only reason it´s delaying me it´s that I´m not able to achieve an answer from John Swantek ( Watervliet Museum Curator ) about WHY THEY MANUFACTURED FIVE GROOVES ZOUAVES!! I know why 7 groves and why 3 grooves...but 5 ?

Best Regards from Spain