Question for John Holland

[kowdok]

Hello John-My question is, did I really see what I thought I saw? I was at a local gun shop today killing time when I saw this 3 band SB for sale. It was in such mint condition my 1st thought was it was a Pedersoli repro of the 1816. Stock, barrel, lock, all looked brand new. Then I saw the leaf blades on the barrel and couldn't stand not to have a closer look. The guy said it was an original Milbury. Not knowing what that meant, I found the following stamps and numbers on it.The barrel near the breach had 1862. The bolster had H&P. Below the bolster had US over A. Waters. The rear of the lock plate had Milbury 1834. The guy had, or at least thought he had a very valuable firearm, he had it listed for $6200. What was I looking at, and what might it be worth?
Jim Rogers

[John Holland]

Jim,

What you found was a real H&P altered Model 1816 musket. If the rear sight was mounted in reverse, with the leaves facing the shooter, then it was a rifled alteration for the State of New Jersey. If the rear sight was mounted conventionally, with the leaves facing forward, then it should be a smoothbore alteration.

In the condition you have presented, rifled or not, he has it priced a bit in excess of $4,000 too high....my opinion only. That is, if the finish is all original and has not been polished or buffed up.

JDH

[Dave Fox]

I'm not comrade Holland, more's the pity, but shall essay to answer your question. The weapon is a M.1822 (sometimes called an 1816) .69 calibre flintlock musket, one of tens upon tens of thousands manufactured until circa 1844. It was the chief U.S. Army arm for much of the early 19th Century and was the chief American infantry arm of the Mexican War. Based upon a French pattern, these were made at Springfield, Harpers Ferry and by numerous contractors, including Asa Waters, Jr., who produced in excess of 36,000 of these over several years under several contracts. The one you observed was initially manufactured in 1834. In 1861, the first year of the Civil War, the firm of Hewes & Phillips ("H&P") of Newark, New Jersey contracted to modernize selected M.1822s which were adjudged sound enough. H&P cut-off the original barrel breech, screwed-in a "patent" breech with percussion bolster with a clean out screw, rifled the barrel (I've heard of, but not seen, H&P examples left smoothbore), altered the lockplate, weakened the main spring, and supplied a large percussion hammer, apparently obtained as surplus overrun of an earlier batch of Remington conversions of M.1822s. An 1858-style small leafed rear sight, reversed from the common orientation, was affixed. These are dated 1861 and 1862 on the barrel, and most, if not all, of these 8,000 are marked "NJ", for a contract with that state (Chris Christie, to my knowledge, was not involved). A second series, some 12,000 in number, were dated 1863 and sold to the Federal Government. They are pretty-much identical to the first series, but have a different hammer and a different bolster without a clean out screw. A run of bayonets without locking rings and with M.1855 style blades were made to mate with these arms. I own a New Jersey contract H&P rifled conversion. It's the most accurate Civil War shoulder arm I've ever fired. The price being asked for the one you observed is very, very high, even for an excellent + example. These .69s , though appreciating in value, have always lacked the sex appeal of, say, the 1855 family of weapons.

[kowdok]

Thanks to both of you gentlemen for answering me. Just to clarify a few details, it was a SB, it had no clean-out screw, and the site leaves faced forward. What is the significance of "Milbury"?

[kowdok]

Why aren't you a member of our organization? The Carolina region has a team based in Ashville, the Buncombe Rifles, that would be a perfect fit for you. We could use someone on our region with your kind of knowledge on one of our teams. We shoot in Statesville, which is only a couple of hours away for you. Consider it, you'll never regret it.
Jim Rogers

[Dave Fox]

The "Millbury" on the lockplate (there should be two "Ls") is the town in Connecticut where the Waters factory was set-up. If there is no clean-out screw on the bolster, the weapon is a second, Federal contract, piece. I lied about the date of this Federal contract. Altered muskets were delivered to the Federal Government by H&P in both 1862 and 1863.
To answer the personal question, I shot briefly with an Illinois N-S team in 1960 and '61. Since then, with college, 'Nam, then more college and work, and with a regrettable lack of discipline, I just never got involved again. Now retired at 70, there are deficiencies in my shooting eye. I enjoy attending shoots at Fort Shenandoah from time-to-time and hope to be there cheering y'all on this Spring.

[Jim_Burgess_2078V]

"What is the significance of "Milbury"? The Waters' factory, where the musket was originally made, was actually in Milbury, Massachusetts. And the reason Mr. Fox has not seen any H&P sighted smoothbores is because they've all been grabbed up by skirmishers.

Jim Burgess, 15th CVI

[Muley Gil]

"Now retired at 70, there are deficiencies in my shooting eye."

That ain't never stopped me from shooting!

[Dave Fox]

I stand corrected: the Waters factory WAS in Massachusetts, not Connecticut. Easy concession to make: under all that snow, both presently look alike to me. However, there are still two "Ls" in Millbury. As for comrade Gil's revelation of a bad shooting eye, I'll take his warning and insure I stand directly behind him at the fort next Spring. Regardless, the rifled musket under discussion is 'way too pricey unless autographed by then-president Andrew Jackson, as verified by an 'expert' on "Pawn Stars"....

[Muley Gil]

"As for comrade Gil's revelation of a bad shooting eye, I'll take his warning and insure I stand directly behind him at the fort next Spring."

The safest spot is right in front of my targets. However, my teammates are much better shots and they pick up my slack.

The important thing is: get out there, shoot, and HAVE FUN. I used to shoot with a gentleman with the Washington Blue Rifles named Ole Schmidt. He shot a 3 band Springfield that was about as long as he was tall. Ole was getting up there in age and his eyes were going too. He told me several times that no, he didn't hit many targets, but when he did, it just tickled him to death!

None of us are getting any younger. As long as I can safely "man the line", and my teammates don't trip over me, I intend to shoulder my musket as long as the Good Lord allows me.

[bilge water bob]

Wow, interesting thread. My barber (in millbury mass)
Who is my main source for lead has 4 of these altered muskets
That he purchased in the 1960's from a local customer for $50
Each. I'm not sure which way the sights face. I was also intetested
In the fact that they looked like they were assembled with
Unfinished parts or they had been cleaned. He tried selling me one
For $1200 last year. I know he still has them, maybe I'll pick one up.

[Fred Jr]

Just a note to Dave Fox on age and eyes. I am 71, retired, nine stents and wear special glasses and still love doing the shooting thing. Harder to do well but gonna keep on keepin' on. Just too many great people I would miss if I quit. Come join the fun!!

Fred

[Michael Bodner]

Can't see well... Heck, that's why we shoot unsighed smoothbore! You ain't gotta see!!! LOL

[kowdok]

Dave Fox, come on down to Statesville for our 1st shoot of the 2014 season, the weekend of Mar. 15 & 16. Directions to the range can be found under the Carolina Region on the web-site. Everyone here would love to meet and visit with you.
Jim Rogers

[Dave Fox]

My thanks for the invitation. I might come east to Statesville with my friend Ron Goodrich to smell the powder smoke.