Sharps. Which Repro is best?

[Lou Lou Lou]

One of our members is considering a sharps. Which is best out of the box? My understanding is that they all need the o-ring modification. Is that correct?
All info gratefully accepted

[Jim Mulligan 7288V]

Shiloh is best out of the box and ten years later. My carbine is 11 years old, no O ring mod and shooting great.

[ms3635v]

Lou,

I have an IAB and a Farmingdale Shiloh Sharps. I prefer the Shiloh because it was easier to sight in...not too much work, and a pleasure to shoot and very easy to clean. Also, works great without the "O" ring modification. Well worth the price.

[Lou Lou Lou]

Thanks. That seems clear enough.

[Ron/The Old Reb]

Ok here is a question.
Shiloh Sharps do not bind up and don't need a O ring job and it seems that all the others brands need one. Then what is Shiloh doing right with there breach block that the others are not? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Jim Mulligan 7288V]

Shiloh takes the time and has the skill to do it right and it's reflected in the price. Italian manufacturers aim for a wider market of re-enactors and budget conscience shooters. Currently new Shiloh carbines sell for twice the price as the imports and three the price of used Italian guns. After the O ring modification though some are achieving good results with Italian Sharps carbines and rifles.

[jonk]

My Pedersoli never has had an O ring conversion and it works just fine. The only trick is to grease the block well with lithium or other synthetic grease, and you can run it all day without an issue.

My teammate has an IAB that, while he will be the first to admit isn't the 'best' gun on the line, his hit times are impressive; as he's said "It's eaten more than one Shiloh for lunch."

So you just never know.

[Phil Spaugy, 3475V]

I got a couple of Shiloh Sharps armed Guards that will be hungry after a long winter, you want to set up a match for lunch in 2014?

Say a bird board at the first regional? Sharps armed carbine shooters only.

[Jim Mulligan 7288V]

That would be very
Nice.

[Scooby]

LOL, now things are getting interesting!

[jonk]

I got a couple of Shiloh Sharps armed Guards that will be hungry after a long winter, you want to set up a match for lunch in 2014?

Say a bird board at the first regional? Sharps armed carbine shooters only.
I'd love to, I'm sure Ian and Eric would be game as well. No predictions for myself, I'm a middle of the pack A team shooter.

[Bullseye54]

Howdy Men,
I have a Shiloh .54 carbine "Farmingdale".. I haven't shot her yet but plan to use her next year..
I also have a Rapine 2 holer ring tail mould.
What will I have to do to the sights for N-SSA matches?
Also what works best with these for a load and lube?...
What is the best way to make the cartriges?
I bought it from a guy in Arizona that shot some blanks in the 70's put it away and never bothered to cleaned it.. It
cleaned up very nice . I can't beleive it, but the bore is shiny with no pitting
. . Thanks for the help...
Joe

[Phil Spaugy, 3475V]

I'd love to, I'm sure Ian and Eric would be game as well. No predictions for myself, I'm a middle of the pack A team shooter.

Sounds good.

Lets say 3 man team all armed with Sharps carbine. Targeting will be a bird board with 20 birds at 50 yards.

Wining company will purchase lunch for the losing company.

As for schedule, I will get with Eric and see if we can do it at the first Centerburg skirmish at 2014.

This will be fun !

[ian45662]

I always welcome with open arms the opportunity to thoroughly and completely embarrass myself. If we loose Jon I am going to eat your lunch!!

[ian45662]

Bullseye the best thing to do would be to call charlie hahn and ask him about sharps tubes www.charliestubes.com . As for lubes there are many lubes that will work. I for one got tired of mixing up and trying different lubes. I bought a bunch of SPG and have never looked back. Once you have the round all made up you will want to dip the bullet in your lube. You will also want to experiment with bullet sizes if at first the as cast ammo does not give you what you want. My sharps will not shoot as cast bullets to save my life but if I size them .002 over groove diam they shoot better than I can hold the gun. As far as sights you can drill a "peep" in the slider thats on the ladder or a lot of people shoot it as is. You may have to install a taller blade either way you go though. You wont know that until you shoot the gun though.

[norman horne, 12321]

Hey Commander, and the rest-a-y'all. This would 'almost' be worth a special trip north to participate in! My Sharps is an Armisport repro. It will run all day with no jamming. I had the 0-ring mod done for two reasons: ease of cleaning, and cuts way down on gas emissions. Y'all remember to post the results of the match. See you in Statesville in a couple of weeks. Take care. Norm.

[Charlie Hahn]

Where might this match happen? I might be able to provide some interesting awards to make it a little more interesting.

Charlie Hahn

[Phil Spaugy, 3475V]

Charlie,

It will be sometime next year at a Midwest regional. I will keep you posted !!

Norm,

I will keep you posted...and I look forward to seeing you at the "Carolina Homecoming" skirmish.

[norman horne, 12321]

Hey Commander, and the rest-a-y'all. This would 'almost' be worth a special trip north to participate in! My Sharps is an Armisport repro. It will run all day with no jamming. I had the 0-ring mod done for two reasons: ease of cleaning, and cuts way down on gas emissions. Y'all remember to post the results of the match. See you in Statesville in a couple of weeks. Take care. Norm.

[norman horne, 12321]

Sorry for the double post Folks! Norm.

[Hickok]

I understand that the post was "best out of the box" Sharps, and that no doubt the Shiloh Sharps is an outstanding rifle, and has a high resale value.

Just like to point out a few ideas for those who are thinking about getting into Sharps rifles, so they have some facts as to which rifle may be best for them.

There are different brands of Sharps paper-cutter rifles available for about $1000 to $1500 new. Most do have a shortcoming in the gas sealing of the breech block that needs correction. Charlie Hahn can correct this problem with his "full job" modification for around $275 but let's just round it off to $300 so we nice easy number to work with. Mr. Hahn's work and modification gets A-Plus recommendations from those who have had it done.

So for the price of $1300 to $1800 depending on the brand of Sharps, (Pietta, Pedersoli etc.) you will have a fully functional, properly working Sharps papercutter to shoot with.

As to which brand shoots the best, that depends on who's booger picker is on the bang switch!;)

[Michael T.]

Sounds good.

Lets say 3 man team all armed with Sharps carbine. Targeting will be a bird board with 20 birds at 50 yards.

Wining company will purchase lunch for the losing company.

As for schedule, I will get with Eric and see if we can do it at the first Centerburg skirmish at 2014.

This will be fun !
I will mention this to Brad Schuler and the rest of the 4th Kentucky, see if we can get some of the Closet Queen Sharps dirty...:D

[Phil Spaugy, 3475V]

Whoa there !!!

This was / is meant to be a Shiloh sharps match between the Union Guards and the SBG armed with other makes of Sharps carbines all in good fun and response to JONK's comment

"My teammate has an IAB that, while he will be the first to admit isn't the 'best' gun on the line, his hit times are impressive; as he's said "It's eaten more than one Shiloh for lunch."


If it happens fine, if not well fine.

[jonk]

Whoa there !!!

This was / is meant to be a Shiloh sharps match between the Union Guards and the SBG armed with other makes of Sharps carbines all in good fun and response to JONK's comment

"My teammate has an IAB that, while he will be the first to admit isn't the 'best' gun on the line, his hit times are impressive; as he's said "It's eaten more than one Shiloh for lunch."


If it happens fine, if not well fine.Indeed. I wouldn't mind seeing other sharps shooters who are at the shoot participate, but to hold true to 'losers buy winners lunch', anyone outside of the Union Guards or SBG should be a fill in only to make sure we have the same number of participants on either side. We don't have time to have every sharps shooter out there suddenly join in.

If this gets too complex or too long, it just isn't worth doing. Naturally if the concept is agreed to, potentially other teams could arrange a similar match, but someone would have to step up and organize.

One option would be to have it not just as a team vs. team 2 team event, but a special event grudge match- after carbine and smoothbore on Saturday, it could be run like such:
All sharps shooters vs. all smith shooters;
or
All sharps shooters vs. everyone else

4 targets per person

But that's getting big, as I said.

[macvcallsign]

Whoa there !!! This was / is meant to be a Shiloh sharps match between the Union Guards and the SBG armed with other makes of Sharps carbines all in good fun and response to JONK's comment "My teammate has an IAB that, while he will be the first to admit isn't the 'best' gun on the line, his hit times are impressive; as he's said "It's eaten more than one Shiloh for lunch." If it happens fine, if not well fine. Phil, I'm sure Brad would Love to participate with a non-Shiloh team. He uses a Pedersoli, no ring job, and he doesn't Miss!!! LOL! Sounds like great fun and a nice change from the regular format. Maybe Hahn will come up with some interesting Prizes too? Maybe we could get Rebs together for Blue vs: Grey?? Free Lunch(or Dinner?) for the winning Team? Make it more interesting have 6 targets per shooter? Remember when we use to be able to have Demo matches with Modern arms(Pistols and Rifles) against a Skirmish team? They were fun to watch but I believe our insurance coverage does not allow that anymore? So Sad! Can I use my Shiloh Rifle?? LOL. Dennis Schuler 4th Kentucky Cavalry, CSA 1561V

[satwel]

I have a Shiloh 1863 Sharps carbine made in Big Timber, MT. I have enjoyed shooting it for 10 years without any problems -- without an O-ring conversion. I presently use a high-pressure synthetic grease to lube the gas check plate. I've also used Gorilla grease, zinc anti-seize paste and copper anti-seize paste - they all worked. I agree with other posts, the high quality and performance of the Shiloh are well worth the extra cost.

[ian45662]

Just about every IAB you get will need work. Some pedersolis are good to go out of the box and some need work. To my knowledge every Shiloh that comes out of their factory is ready to skirmish right out of the box

[Tim Lyne]

I bought a Pedersoli Carbine about mid-season this year. (Not a good time to change horses, but I had to do something as I was shooting minute of garbage can lid with my Smith.) Now that I have it shooting, I'll offer my 2 cents.
1. The butt-stock is dimensioned thicker than my original; the stock lines don't "sweep" like an original, leaving a squarish feel in some places, particularly around the comb. I can fix that this winter.
2. The barrel band is VERY loose and rattles. I can fix that this winter.
3. The nipple was too short for the hammer throw. A combination of a longer coned nipple and relieving a portion of the tumbler with a Dremel tool where it meets the bridle stop took care of that. Now I get about a sixteenth of an inch hammer movement forward when I drop the block. That's sufficient.
4. To get the tumbler out of the lock to do that work required the use of my hydraulic bearing press; I had it well supported around the tumbler, but I was still afraid that I was going to bend the lockplate before it let go. It came loose with a loud bang. I like a tight hammer fit, but criminey... if it took that much force to get this off, it probably took that much force to put it on...I fixed that.
5. The tumbler is a bit loose in the lockplate hole, meaning that there is some movement side to side. I can fix that, but it may take a new tumbler or a bushing of the lockplate.
6. I have a lathe so I did an o-ring on the breech sleeve, which is a very nice slip-fit in the breech.

I don't mean for this to sound hyper-critical of a product; the fact is it's very likely that anything you buy to shoot is going to need you, as the shooter, to do "things" that make it a shooter and not a looker. Likely many of the above things may not bother anyone else (except the nipple/hammer issue), but I do love to tinker and truthfully, I wouldn't have bought this if I thought it couldn't do what I wanted it to do; reliably shoot 9's and 10's and break those stinkin' merciless, tiny, tiny pots.
My load is 30grains of 3f Goex (in the 5lb. bag) behind a Rapine full wadcutter.

Tim Lyne
Knap's Batt.
#2952V

[Ron/The Old Reb]

It's like I tell everyone who ask me about skirmishing. It's 75% work and 25% fun. You have to like it to do it.http://www.n-ssa.org/vbforum/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif

[OregonBill]

Was the Sharps match ever held? How did it come out?

[Maillemaker]

Does the Farmingdale Shiloh company still exists? I googled but did not turn up anything obvious.

Is there a web site?

Steve

[Mike McDaniel]

They moved to Montana. www.shilohrifle.com (http://www.shilohrifle.com)

[Jim_Burgess_2078V]

Getting back to Lou's original question, clearly the consensus here is that Shiloh Sharps carbines and rifles are the best out of the box. I concur. I've been shooting my Farmingdale Sharps carbine since 1978 and it is still going strong albeit it works best with the old, hot, CCI caps that are quickly becoming extinct. (I've been shooting loose powder and might not have ignition issues if I take the time and trouble to make paper cartridges with filler.) The only tinkering that may be required to a Shiloh is a taller front sight. This is not to say that the Italian copies can't be made to shoot well but they do need some modification. It is interesting that the Shiloh Sharps have an effective gas seal without employing an original style chamber sleeve. The gas is sealed solely by the gas check plate on the breechblock.

I've noticed a significant difference between the Shiloh breechblock and some Italian breechblocks that may account for the fouling issues and poor gas sealing in the Italian guns. The Shiloh breechblock has a relatively wide chamber cavity equaling the diameter of the barrel chamber. Thus little or none of the gas check plate surface area is exposed to the barrel chamber and this tends to minimize fouling on the plate. The Italian guns have a much smaller breechblock chamber which exposes more of the gas check plate surface to fouling. The fouling that builds up on the plate then contributes to a poor gas seal. The O-ring modification tends to mitigate this problem by applying more pressure between the plate and barrel sleeve.

The big problem Lou is now likely to face is finding a Shiloh percussion Sharps new in the box. Shiloh moved from Farmingdale, NY to Big Timber, MT ages ago where the company began to focus more on metallic cartridge guns (M1874). It is my understanding they have now discontinued the percussion models. My well used carbine will likely continue to appreciate in value.

Jim Burgess, 15th Conn Vol. Inf.

[Maillemaker]

The big problem Lou is now likely to face is finding a Shiloh percussion Sharps new in the box. Shiloh moved from Farmingdale, NY to Big Timber, MT ages ago where the company began to focus more on metallic cartridge guns (M1874). It is my understanding they have now discontinued the percussion models. My well used carbine will likely continue to appreciate in value.

Yup, I went to the above web site and saw no percussion models. However since they appear to be a semi-custom shop you may well find that for sufficient coin they'd make you whatever you want.

Steve

[Lou Lou Lou]

My team member ordered one from Shiloh after the initial comments. Supposedly only 3-4 more months.

thanks to all

[Curt]

Hallo!

IMHO, "beauty" can be in the eye of the beholder.

Meaning, the old Garrett's had the only lock with a Lawrence Primer Mechanism (not that one can get copper Lawrence primers). But that is more a "reenacting"' plus versus the bogus "roller coaster" humpback of the Shiloh and the Italian clones. Versus the totally eliminated (as on the Robinson/Richmond Sharps) primer portion of the lock plate as on the IAB/Sile's

Then there is the gas check on the "Shiloh's,' which was the same as the Garrett, but which can vary on Italian clones that evolved into a not-so-effective "hoped it would float" gas check tube that evolved back again so depending on the era of one's used Sharps it could be one or the other. Or the "O" ring modifications. Or as one of the Bodyguard once did who was a tool and die maker- he milled off the cast on faked gas check, and made an actual functioning floating plate for it.

Shooting accuracy? IMHO, a toss up.

For me, and in my experience firing a Shiloh, a Pedersoli, a Garrett, and a Sile.... my Sile shot the "best." With the buffalo slug (Quaker Oats "oatmeal box") bullet, and 42 grains of FFF in a paper cartridge, my Sile would fire a quarter sized group, benched, at 50 yards. None of the others matched that.

Problem was, I could not shoot that off-hand, and went to a Yeck Smith. :) :) :)

Curt

[Maillemaker]

Hi Curt, what is a "Sile"?

Steve

[OregonBill]

Curt, thanks for sharing your in-depth experience. I found this piece about Mike Yeck, in which I believe you are mentioned. I am sad to hear that folks took advantage of Mike Yeck. Did not know his devotion to the Smith ended up in Pietta's hands.

http://www.civilwarnews.com/watchdog/wd_091101.html

[Curt]

Hallo!

Sile Distributors of NY, NY, was an importer of Italian blackpowder repros in the early 1980's through about 1999.

IIRC, the first of the Sharps repro's were made by Industria Armi Bresciane (IAB) until Shiloh came out with theirs.

A number of US vendors also carried them from Sile such as Dixie. (As we sometimes often do, we confuse the importer of Italian guns as the actual maker. Sometimes, because the seller adds their name to the maker for a combined logo stamping.)

Curt