Question for loading ammo.....

[William H. Shuey]

Hi Troops:

I have just received Mid-South Shooter's Supplies' latest flyer and they have a couple of those computer driven powder charge dispensers for sale, one by RCBS, one by Lyman and another by Hornady. A friend of mine uses one of these for his powder charges when loading modern cartridges and it sure speeds things up.
So my question is does anyone out there in N-SSA land use one of these units??

Bill Shuey

[Rich Foster]

Ever heard the sound kaboom of blackpowder going off. Don't put black powder in a electronic mechanical powder dispenser. I would expect it be all plastic crunching blackpowder with it hooked up to 110v. You might have a brave one out there that does use it. Rich

[ms3635v]

I measure my powder charges using a powder trickler and a digital scale. I tried powder measures years ago and the method I use works for me, but many use powder measures. It all depends on what works for you.

[Lou Lou Lou]

I have been using a volumetric Belding and Mull for over 30 years. It works for me.

[Hickok]

Blackpowder and smokeless powder are two different animals when it comes to powder chargers and and tools used for measuring and despensing powder. I don't want to get into the argument of "will static electricity set off bp", but for all blackpowder applications as to weighing and throwing charges, the equipment needs to be specific for bp use. There are chargers made for use with bp, static and spark free, usually all brass or aluminum internal parts, no plastic, so as not to cause a build up of static. So if you are thinking of bp, be alert as to equipment used, but when using smokeless powder there is more latitude as to choices.

Safe is better than sorry when using black powder.

[Maillemaker]

After a bit of internet reading on this subject, I have become somewhat convinced that BP cannot usually be set off by static electricity. The main reason for this seems to be that BP is a pretty good conductor of electricity, and so does not heat up when electricity passes through it. Heat seems to be the crucial aspect of lighting off BP.

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/electric_ignition/eignition.html

In the second article above the author is actually trying to build an electrical black powder ignition system for a firearm, and had quite a difficult time making it work.

Here is a video where a guy repeatedly uses a taser on some BP:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5Z5yAeO3dw

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/spark_train.jpg

Steve

[Bullseye54]

Perhaps a better experiment would be to fill a plastic powder measure with a pound or a half , not 4 grains
and play Russian roulet and start zapping the measure in different spots.. When a engineer from a black powder
manufacturer excepts responsability and says it is OK to use a smokeless measure for B/P then I will feel safe... Not
some experiment with 4 grains of powder.. I know for a fact that I have more than 4 grains in the hopper when I reload

[Francis J. Miller Jr, 02601]

Gentlemen, I have used an RCBS uniflow powder measure for over 30 yrs. using the "Holy Black" plus Lyman 550's with no problem. If you're worried about static from plastic, we load our black powder into plastic "caplugs" making our musket/carbine rounds. Plus, when you purchase Goex black powder in 25# bulk it is, God Forbid, packed in a plastic bag from the manufacturer, as is also the 1# plastic containers by Goex & Swiss. My question is, if plastic is so dangerous that it could ignite black powder by static, then why are black powder manufacturers packing it in plastic???

[Rob FreemanWBR]

Bill,

You may want to take a look at YouTube. There is at least one video that compares loading process/speed when throwing powder via a digital system against a manual powder dispenser.

I've never used an electric powder measure. But from what I've been able to learn is that they work fine; however, they are SLOW.

Hope this helps!

[Maillemaker]

Perhaps a better experiment would be to fill a plastic powder measure with a pound or a half , not 4 grains
and play Russian roulet and start zapping the measure in different spots.. When a engineer from a black powder
manufacturer excepts responsability and says it is OK to use a smokeless measure for B/P then I will feel safe... Not
some experiment with 4 grains of powder.. I know for a fact that I have more than 4 grains in the hopper when I reload

Did you click any of the other links? I only picked the one picture that showed the charge flowing over the grains.

Check out the video with the guy zapping it with a taser.

Electricity burns things through heat - heat caused by electrical resistance. Since black powder is a pretty good conductor, it doesn't heat up much when the electricity flows through it, evidently.

In one of the pictures the charge actually burns holes through the paper the gunpowder is sitting on, but still doesn't set off the powder.

The Shuetzen powder I just bought all came in plastic 1-pound bottles.

Steve

[Maillemaker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5Z5yAeO3dw

[jonk]

It is my opinion that what sets off powder in a measure- potentially- is one of three things. 1. Heat generated from friction; a small granule gets between two parts and grates into a fine dust; as the rotor is turned again and again it heats and, perhaps locally, for just long enough, gets hot enough to burn; 2. or otherwise enough friction energy is imparted to set it off without heat. 3. A spark. While electricity will not set off black powder in the open air, a fine dust suspended in the air between two components inside a housing MIGHT go off. I'd like to see the taser experiment repeated using the fines left at the bottom of a null b can sprinkled in to an enclosed container, shaken, and then sparked.

Now where does that leave us with powder measures?

Well, in point of fact, it says that any are safe. Or at least as safe as any other. For point one, no measure is going to turn fast enough to generate that kind of heat. For point 2, same deal. For point 3, any spark will be when the operator touches the dispenser and completes a circuit to ground for static; this is external and, if the lid is on the measure, has no chance to set off anything; or, internally, it could be caused by two surfaces striking together like flint and steel. In plastic measures, plastic on plastic doesn't cause sparks, in dedicated bp measures, brass on steel or brass on brass doesn't cause sparks, and in normal all steel dispensers.... well in theory I suppose it could happen, but two polished steel surfaces lightly rubbing aren't in the habit of sparking; you'd have to bang them together with quite a bit of force and, to be honest, if it were an issue, it would be an issue with smokeless as well.

I wouldn't worry about it.

Now with electrics, this advice goes out the window. The little trickler tubes aren't going to create any real friction, this is true, but the electric motor inside... well let's just say that if any fines find their way inside, get suspended in the air inside the motor, and go off.......yeah, THAT I would avoid. But they're still fine tools for smokeless.

[Maillemaker]

It is my opinion that what sets off powder in a measure- potentially- is one of three things. 1. Heat generated from friction; a small granule gets between two parts and grates into a fine dust; as the rotor is turned again and again it heats and, perhaps locally, for just long enough, gets hot enough to burn; 2. or otherwise enough friction energy is imparted to set it off without heat.

I agree that friction is definitely a way to set off black powder. See the anvil-launching scene in the Hatfields & McCoy's series will Bill Paxton. They put some black powder on top of a big anvil and a little anvil on top of it and whack it with a sledge hammer, which sets off the powder and launches it.


3. A spark. While electricity will not set off black powder in the open air, a fine dust suspended in the air between two components inside a housing MIGHT go off. I'd like to see the taser experiment repeated using the fines left at the bottom of a null b can sprinkled in to an enclosed container, shaken, and then sparked.

If you click on the above video, it appears that the powder is quite fine, and in fact some of the dust puffs off during the tasing.

I think that there are different kinds of "sparks". When you have a spark as thrown by a flintlock, that is actually a tiny speck of steel actually burning in the air. It is quite hot and, obviously, plenty hot to make black powder ignite.

Electrical sparks caused by arcing may not heat any object that the sparks travel over/through if the object does offer much resistance. It appears that black powder is reasonably conductive and consequently does not heat up much when electricity passes through it. Evidently not even the air the electricity is passing through is getting hot enough to set off the powder.


Now where does that leave us with powder measures?

I have never used an electric powder measure and have no idea how they work. Presumably it would be equally bad to get smokeless powder into the mechanical workings of such a device as smokeless. Presumably the electrical transformers, motors, and other components do offer electrical and mechanical resistance and do heat up to some degree as a result. Presumably these workings are reasonably sealed to prevent powder from getting inside. I have no idea and offer no opinion.

The only problem I can see with mechanical measures is if somehow the mechanics that "chop off" the fixed volume do not work with the mechanical grains of black powder as opposed to the mechanical grains of smokeless powder. I have heard, for example, that people have trouble with some measures just for smokeless powder if the smokeless powder is manufactured in tiny balls versus in flakes. Maybe the grainy nature of black powder causes problems for measures made to deal with smokeless powder.

I know a lot of people here said they have used the smokeless powder Lyman 55 for measuring black powder without any problems. I don't think there is a static electricity problem with volumetric measures. There might be other problems, I don't know.

Steve

[jonk]

Steve,

I'll only add to my previous response: grain silos can blow if enough dust gets suspended in the air, and grain is not particularly flammable. Like I said, certain conditions have to be met; very fine powder suspended in the air. Which is the same for anything of course; you throw a match in a bucket of diesel oil, it will go out. Spray that oil with a mister into a jug and toss a match into that, poof.

[Maillemaker]

I'll only add to my previous response: grain silos can blow if enough dust gets suspended in the air, and grain is not particularly flammable.

I understand, but again, I don't think the issue is flammability, I think the issue is conductivity, and dumping enough energy over a long enough period of time in a small enough space to make BP burn.

Again, I highly recommend this fellow's very interesting and short article on how he made an electrically-fired black powder gun:

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/electric_ignition/eignition.html

As he shows, you certainly can ignite BP with an electrical spark. But evidently it takes special conditions to work.

Steve

[Jim Barber]

I generally hate to get into anecdotal-evidence-based discussions ("my uncle handled rattlesnakes for 30 years, and HE never got bit, therefore handling rattlesnakes is safe!") but in this instance I wonder:

Are there any documented cases of a Lyman 55 measure (the most common measure I can think of) spontaneously blowing up without the addition of a careless smoker or other external cause? Because if the evidence for static BP explosions in a "non-BP-certified" measure is strictly anecdotal, it's pretty much the flip side of the anecdotal rattlesnake-handling uncle, isn't it? "I heard it could happen, my uncle's buddy's friend got blown up loading tubes for his Springfield!"

A real life example of what I'm trying to say in action: Cell phones at the gas pump don't cause explosions, and have been pretty well proven not to do so, BUT polyester or other static-prone garments building up a charge on the seat & then grounding at the nozzle certainly will. I reckon I'm loathe to conflate one phenomenon with another, is the thing.

Anyone got scientifically-backed info for this issue, one way or t'other?

Cheers
Jim B.
110th OVI
Grove City, OH

[Bullseye54]

Any safety expert/engineers that work for the powder companys or measure manufacturer want to take
the responsability to ok B/P use in a non B/P measure??
Whats the difference in price between the two?? Is it worth the gamble?
Why cut corners when it comes to safety in peace time..
Blind, disfigured or dead just isn't my idea of a fun sport..

[Hickok]

Remember Murphy's Law, if anything can go wrong, it will.

One pound of BP buried 3 feet underground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d0NgBBwBkU

[Eggman]

Since electricity has no affect on black powder, and I assume smokeless powder as well, would one of you guys from the Army AAA, or somebody from the Air Force zoomie gun service, please explain how you get those electrically primed 20mm (no primer in the base - none) used in the Vulcan Gatling gun to fire.

[Maillemaker]

Since electricity has no affect on black powder, and I assume smokeless powder as well, would one of you guys from the Army AAA, or somebody from the Air Force zoomie gun service, please explain how you get those electrically primed 20mm (no primer in the base - none) used in the Vulcan Gatling gun to fire.

Again, it's not that electricity has no effect on black powder (or smokeless), it's that it is evidently rather difficult to get it to set it off:

Again, check out this article on a fellow who built an electrically-triggered firearm that sets off BP, BP substitutes, and smokeless powder:

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/electric_ignition/eignition.html

It's not the spark that ignites the powder. It's heat from electrical resistance. You've got to dump enough energy over a long enough period of time to get the powder to heat to ignition temperature.

It seems that it is difficult to heat black powder to its ignition temperature through standard static electricity discharges. There just isn't enough energy over a long enough period of time to get it to heat up enough to burn.

Steve

[Maillemaker]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_electricity


The spark associated with static electricity is caused by electrostatic discharge, or simply static discharge, as excess charge is neutralized by a flow of charges from or to the surroundings. The feeling of an electric shock is caused by the stimulation of nerves as the neutralizing current flows through the human body. The energy stored as static electricity on an object varies depending on the size of the object and its capacitance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitance), the voltage to which it is charged, and the dielectric constant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric_constant) of the surrounding medium. For modelling the effect of static discharge on sensitive electronic devices, a human being is represented as a capacitor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor) of 100 picofarads (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farad), charged to a voltage of 4000 to 35000 volts. When touching an object this energy is discharged in less than a microsecond.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_electricity#cite_note-7) While the total energy is small, on the order of millijoules (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule), it can still damage sensitive electronic devices. Larger objects will store more energy, which may be directly hazardous to human contact or which may give a spark that can ignite flammable gas or dust.

So the energy discharged by your typical human-created static discharge is on the order of millijoules in less than one microsecond, while the guy's gun ignitor dumps 5 joules of energy over 2000 microseconds.

So we are talking thousands of times more energy over thousands of times longer duration.

That is why it is so hard to set off BP with a normal static discharge. Probably not impossible under the right conditions, but hard.

Steve

[Benjamin F Clark 12618]

Since electricity has no affect on black powder, and I assume smokeless powder as well, would one of you guys from the Army AAA, or somebody from the Air Force zoomie gun service, please explain how you get those electrically primed 20mm (no primer in the base - none) used in the Vulcan Gatling gun to fire.

As a Crew Chief on the F15 for 20 years, I became familiar with the gun system. During downloads of the gun drum, I was able to examine the ammo as it was deposited back into the ammo trailer. They do have primers and after firing the electrode leaves a small indented circle . The first round with the blue projectile is a TP round which has been made inert, the second is a spent case and the third is a dummy for load training and system testing.



22492250

[Lou Lou Lou]

I worked on F100 guns in 'Nam and all the 20 mill brass was primed and electrically fired. In the M39 canons as well as the Vulcans