Dialing in the Pedersoli P58 continued...SUCCESS!

[Maillemaker]

So the only full-sized minie ball mold that I have that will size to .578 is my RCBS-500M. So I made up a batch of 100 cartridges, with 15 each of 45 grains, 50 Grains, and 55 grains of 2F Goex, and the last 5 rounds with 60 grains.

Went out to the range with my Pedersoli P58 that I have been trying to find a load for. So far I have tried the RCBS-Hodgdon, which keyholed, and the Lyman 575213 PH, which drops at .575 and this gun needs a .578 bullet and thus did not give great groups. I have also tried the Moose 580 Wilkinson but did not get great groups with it, either.

Once again the 2F Goex is clearly superior to the 3F Shuetzen powder I had been using. Even with the limited lube carrying capability of traditional 3-groove minnie balls there were no fouling problems and all rounds loaded easily. All rounds were loaded with 2:1 Crisco/Beeswax lube.

I started out with the 45 Grain 2F Goex loads. Not good results. Same with 50 grains. At 55 grains, the groups started to show a little promise.

At 60 grains, I hit the bullseye, figuratively anyway. All 5 shots touched. I was using a 6'oclock hold. Prior to shooting the 55 grain loads I filed a bit off of the front sight since it was obvious I was shooting low. It probably needs to be a little lower yet. All shots were made off of a bench rest.

The rifle is stock, except for the front and rear sights which I replaced, and the tumbler and sear which are Lodgewood machined replacements.

This is basically a period load-out for this arm - an expanding ball bullet with 60 grains of powder.

Let me tell you, when you launch a 537 grain bullet with 60 grains of powder, you know you're shooting a man's rifle! :)

I suspect the Lyman 575213 PH, with its thinner skirt, will perform similarly to this RCBS-500M and with less powder, if I could get one that I could size to .578.

Steve

http://i.imgur.com/SzKuKkW.jpg

[Rich Foster]

Steve, Looks like your getting the hang of it. Yeah 60grns will tighten up your jaw up. Kinda takes all the fun out of it. I had a Enfield that had a 1-48 twist and 5 lands and grooves and used the old style minie with 47.5 grains of 3f goex with good results. From your groups it does look like getting a consistant gas seal is the key. You are diffently got the velocity with those powder charges. Kinda curious how many rounds have been through that barrel? Rich

[Maillemaker]

I don't mind heavy charges. I enjoy shooting my .44 mag. :)

I have less than 500 rounds through it.

Steve

[Hickok]

That 60gr of 2f load is really "getting it done!"

That is basically the load my 2 bander likes. Off the bench after about a bunch of rounds just look up and say "Hooray, get some!!!":D

[Maillemaker]

It was really great because I had only made up 50 cartridges and left for the range at about 3:30pm so I didn't have a lot of time to shoot. I started with the 45 grain loads and by the time I got to 55 grains I was really disappointed and was beginning to question whether I would ever get this gun to shoot well.

I had made up 15 of each load and had 5 left over that I made 60 grain loads. The 60 grain loads saved the day! :)

Bullets were digitally weighed pre-sizing to be within +/- .05% of the average. Powder was digitally weighed to within +/- .2 grains.

Steve

[R. McAuley 3014V]

I realise that you now have your rifle "dialed-in" as you say with the heavy 60-grain charge of double-fine powder, I am going to now suggest you try another load and see how you like it compared to what you have now. Try shooting 40-grains of triple-fine powder (FFFg) with either your .578 Hodgdon bullet or if you can find some, the Rapine 575315 (315-grain) wadcutter (Lyman also makes a similar bullet), and see how that bullet and load does in your P/58 5-groove rifle.

For perhaps my first 25 years of skirmishing, I used double-fine (FFg) powder in most every musket, carbine, and revolver I owned, and continued this practice until switching to triple-fine (FFFg) for my M1842 and Smith Carbine. Up until about a year before I acquired a M1855 Rifle in 2008 and decided to retire my P/60 Enfield, I had finally switched to triple-fine with the P/60 Enfield, which enabled me to attain the same degree of accuracy with just 40-grains of triple-fine as compared to the former charge of 60 grains of double-fine.

It really never mattered much whether I shot a Lee Ashcan, Rapine Wadcutter, or the Hodgdon .578 minie, the accuracy remained the same for 50 and 100 yards with each in the Enfield. After it was relined by Hoyt, probably my most favorite regional event ceame the “trash” event, and in particular, shooting the narrow wooden slices of 2x4 (actual dimensions of 1-1/2”x 3-1/2”) at 50 yards. One recent National, our position on the line was directly in front of the main tower when in the clay pot event at 50 yards, I had just come off the line having broke 7 pots for 7 shots, when we was stopped for a trigger-pull check. I didn’t mind though because when the inspector went to cock the hammer, he remarked that it had amazed him that I could hit anything as it had a horrendous 14# trigger pull.

Following a Rob Lewis’ trigger job, I had to learn how to shoot the rifle all over again! Compared with the former heavy 14# trigger pull, the new 4# trigger pull was like having a set-trigger, amd whilst the P/60 may not look very pretty on the outside with all its many dings and dents of the past 140 years, it has it where it counts.

Like Mr. Hickok here, I also got keyholes with 55 grains of double-fine Goex, and finally found the best accuracy at 60-grains, but it was a punishing ordeal, my cheek was often so severely bruised after just one event, it affected my consistency in the other events. I often tended to flinch or jerked in anticipation of the round going off and this got worse depending on how bad my cheek hurt,… I had to find another solution. So when another team member who was shooting a ’55 Rifle suggested using his ammo for one event, he gave me the rest of his loaded ammo to take home to evaluate.

His ammo used the Rapine 575315 wadcutter bullet, sized to .575, but with just 40 grains of triple-fine powder. After pulling his bullets and substituting my own (sized .576 for the Enfield), it tightened my group so much that I decided to switch to that load, the recoil dropped significantly, and my hit-ratio increased to the degree that now I rarely missed; and one National, I only shot 20 rounds for the team events, with at least one shot in each event fired into the backstop because we exhausted our targetry.

I don’t get to practice very often. The nearest range is a public range that is 50 miles from my house and I have to compete for a spot on the range along with the cudzu commandos with their assault rifles and SMGs, or the weekend plinkers out shooting at their beer cans at 10 feet. More often I go without practicing, like after buying my ’55 Rifle at the 2008 Spring National, it was another 18 months before I got my first chance to shoot it, and that was at the next National that I attended, in the fall of 2009. Despite having never fired the new rifle, and shooting a new load and new bullet (40-grains triple-fine Goex with 315-grain Rapine wadcutter), within my first 3 shots on the pigeon board, the rifle was zeroed, and I didn’t miss a target for the completion of the team matches.

Of course, if you really like shooting that 60-grain load and pounding your face against a tree, you are certainly weldomed to stick with it. But if you are looking for another solution, this same 40-grain load has worked with at least four rifles, it might work for yours too?

[Maillemaker]

Hi Richard,

Yup, I switched to 3F about 6 months ago after hearing that a lot of folks use it for rifles. I bought 10 pounds of 3F Shuetzen and I'm still using it up. I use 44 grains of 3F Shuetzen in my Hoyt-barreled Richmond Carbine with a .576-sized .578 RCBS-Hodgdon and 46 grains with the same bullet in my Whitacre-barreled P53. They both shoot dead-on and are my skirmish guns presently.

I am, however, convinced that the Shuetzen powder is not very good and it burns much, much dirtier than Goex. So much so that it make shooting a Wilkinson bullet virtually impossible. There was also a poster here recently who did chrono tests with the Shutezen vs. Goex and discovered that the Shutzen had lower average velocities and less consistency shot-to-shot.

I've got 5 pounds of 2F Goex left over and so I decided to use it for this test. I did this knowing that the Goex burns cleaner and given the limited capability of the traditional grease grooves did not want to have difficulty loading.

When I run out of powder I'm going to buy more 3F. I haven't decided whether to stick with Goex or step up to Swiss, which seems to be the Cadillac of powders. But everyone seems to agree that shooting 3F vs. 2F you can reduce your load by 10-15% and get the same bang, which means saving money if nothing else.

I tried the RCBS-Hodgdon in this P58 with no luck. I think I worked from 35 grains up to 60 grains 3F Shuetzen. Anything below 55 grains consistently resulted in keyholes. This was sized to .578. .579 will not load.

Steve

[Rebel Dave]

Richard

In looking at the photos of Moose molds wadcutter, It looks very similar to the Rapine 575463 (575315) wadcutter, which is advertised at 315 grns. I'm mentioning this as Rapine molds are getting scarce.

I shoot the lyman wadcutter @ .575 with MCM lube, and 45 grns GOEX 3F. I do the same with the RCBS N-SSA Minnie, with a larger base pin. They both shoot about the same. I shoot them in my Fayetteville Rifle, and my Richmond carbine, with Harmon/Large BBLs. The guns and the rounds are more accurate than me.

I would like to find someone to make me a larger base pin for my Lyman 575494 wadcutter, and see how it would shoot. The Lyman has a thick skirt.

Rebel Dave

[iron brigade]

Richard

In looking at the photos of Moose molds wadcutter, It looks very similar to the Rapine 575463 (575315) wadcutter, which is advertised at 315 grns. I'm mentioning this as Rapine molds are getting scarce.

I shoot the lyman wadcutter @ .575 with MCM lube, and 45 grns GOEX 3F. I do the same with the RCBS N-SSA Minnie, with a larger base pin. They both shoot about the same. I shoot them in my Fayetteville Rifle, and my Richmond carbine, with Harmon/Large BBLs. The guns and the rounds are more accurate than me.

I would like to find someone to make me a larger base pin for my Lyman 575494 wadcutter, and see how it would shoot. The Lyman has a thick skirt.

Rebel Dave

Dave
I shoot the same wadcutter and have the rapine as well. in the miss I bought from you. .578 bore and shoot the wadcutter as cast at about .576. shoots excellent. 38 grain charge.

[Maillemaker]

Well, maybe not. :(

Made up 50 cartridges today with 60 grains 2F Goex expecting to do some drilling and sighting in but the shots were all over the place again.

Steve

[FirinFlatTop]

sounds like the black powder Voodoo has been hanging around, it is out there:mad:

[Mike Stein]

Same lot on powder, caps and bullets?

[Maillemaker]

New tin of caps, and new batch of bullets, but all weighed the same.

Hard to believe I'd get so lucky with 5 touching shots the first time.

Steve

[Southron Sr.]

Twas the early Spring of '73 when I stumbled into a sleazy looking gun shop in a back alley of Norfolk, VA. What caught my eye was a dusty shelf filled with Lyman moulds. Obviously, they had been there a long time because the boxes were covered by dust.

Better yet, the boxes had ancient, antique price stickers on them, pricing the moulds at truly "Give Away" prices. I selected a few moulds and with some hesitation made my way to the counter. An elderly gentleman ran the shop and to my amazement, he simply punched the very low prices of the price tags into a cash register and totaled them. Then he added sales tax and informed me that I owed something like $20.45.

I paid for the moulds and walked out of the shop with them in a bag, not believing my good luck at the bargain I had found.

One of the Lyman moulds threw a 315 Grain SWC in .58 caliber. Well, a few weeks later I put some handles on that mould and cast up some 315 Grainers and headed to the range. I was dumbfounded when the little bullets all landed in one neat hole in the target!!!

I told my friend, thge Late Guy Owen about my discovery and gave him some of the 315 Grainers and he too reported that they shot amazing groups in his rifle also.

Quickly the word spread to the members of the team that Guy and I were members of and we began to win the Musket Team Matches at the Skirmishes we attended.

Ah yes...Life as a member of a winning team. Your fellow Skirmishers respect you and gently inquire about your "Secrets" of winning. The unmarried Ladies throw themselves at you-even IF you are married. Temptation comes at you from every direction.

THEN THAT HORRIBLE, TERRIBLE DAY ARRIVED...Snif...Snif...Snif...

Even 40 years later, the memory of that terrible Skirmish still wounds my soul....Arrrrrgggg!

What Happened?

We marched to the Skirmish Line for the Musket TEam Matches with a proud, haughty look on our faces, sure that we would soon lay a major whipping the rabble opposing us in that Skirmish.

Just about the time the first volley in the Musket Team Matches were fired, the wind began to blow. It was not a steady wind from a constant direction but a chaotic wind that came from every direction with gusts above 25 MPH occasionally.

No matter how carefully we aimed our 315 Grainers at the targets..the wind would catch them and send them in directions unintneded.

WE HARDLY BROKE MORE THAN A FEW TARGETS EVERY EVENT!!!

TWAS A terrible day. We came in LAST...

The source of our defeat? The 315 Grainers don't shoot worth a heck on a WINDY day.

[Ron/The Old Reb]

Pride Goeth befor destruction: Provers 16:18http://www.n-ssa.org/vbforum/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif

[Maillemaker]

Well, now that I think on it, it was a tad windy that day and I even commented on it to another fellow on the range. In fact my targets almost blew away when I was down range and the nice folks at the bench next to me went and save them.

But this is a ~530 grain bullet! I would not expect it to be that influenced by wind at 50 yards.

I guess I will try again.

Steve

[Southron Sr.]

Dear Steve:

I used Crisco in my lube mix from 1968 until the 1980's and every year it seemed, I would experience one or more "Cook-Offs." These Cook-Offs always occurred on hot, humid Summertime days after I had fired ten or twelve rounds Rapid Fire (like in a Brigade Shoot.)

Then in the 1980's I dropped Crisco from my lube mix AND I HAVEN'T HAD A SINGLE COOK-OFF SINCE. So, I avoid using Crisco.

There are a lot of good lube formulas out there that don't use Crisco.

All My Best

Southron, Sr.

[Maillemaker]

Southron:

Do you use a breech scraper as a routine part of your cleaning regimen?

Steve

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Dear Steve:

I used Crisco in my lube mix from 1968 until the 1980's and every year it seemed, I would experience one or more "Cook-Offs." These Cook-Offs always occurred on hot, humid Summertime days after I had fired ten or twelve rounds Rapid Fire (like in a Brigade Shoot.)

Then in the 1980's I dropped Crisco from my lube mix AND I HAVEN'T HAD A SINGLE COOK-OFF SINCE. So, I avoid using Crisco.

There are a lot of good lube formulas out there that don't use Crisco.

All My Best

Southron, Sr.


I'm thinking Bro'yhr your last "cook-off" was at the first Nathan Bedford Forrest Skirmish held at Union City, TN in the summer of 1978. Gents, this guy flies from Winchester by commercial flight down to attend this skirmish, while Grady and I drive up from Savannah (some 700 miles away) in Grady's Vega (which breaks down on the return trip home, but that's another story). Anyhow, this guy was lucky to even be allowed to bring his musket aboard the plane... but has no ammo, not even bullets. He buys his bullets from Dixie Gun Works and also buys one of these "indestructable" phenolic plastic bullet starters which he uses to push his bullets through (I think) it was a .571 bullet sizer that he holds in his hand. By about the 40th bullet going through the sizer, he is now pounding the bullets through the sizer with a hammer when suddenly the bullet starter explodes into shards! Though he has "sized" most of his bullets, he has enough to get by for individuals but he has to borrow rounds from us to make it through the team match. That was why he was using Crisco for lube because he didn't have any other way to melt the beeswax sitting in the motel room while loading his bullets for the next day. Is that about the way you remember it?

This was back when Southron Sr was commander of the 3rd Georgia (notice our member numbers: 3002 vs. 3014), and we attended this skirmish in support of what was then a new probationary team in the Central Virginia Region, the 4th Tennessee (part of the Deep South Region since 1980).

[Lou Lou Lou]

Wow, that hurts

[Muley Gil]

Southron:

Do you use a breech scraper as a routine part of your cleaning regimen?

Steve

I use the breech scaper between relays. I also use a brass bore brush. I invert my musket (or carbine) to dump any residue.

I use MCM lube on my Minies, dipping in lube after they have been inserted in loaded tubes. I clean the bore with Ballistol after a skirmish and lube it with Bore Butter. I don't use petroleum products to oil the bore. The Bore Butter seasons the barrel, kinda like seasoning a cast iron skillet. It also makes clean up easiers IMHO.

I've never used Crisco for lube (except in my cap n'ball revolvers) nor have I ever had a cook-off and I've been shooting muskets since 1969.

[lkmcd1]

I have been reading all the great information in this thread since I recently bought a Pedersoli P58 from Dixie 3 weeks ago. The workmanship appears excellent with the exception being the ladder rear sight slide being sloppy. I am in the trial and error phase of sighting it in and have shot around 150 rounds so far. I have been working with bullets from a Lyman 575213 ~510 grains and 575213os ~ 430 grains. To date, the best I have shot from a rest at 50 yards is a 5 1/2 group with the 430 gr, 45gr goex 3f, and about the same group size with the 510 gr with 55gr goex. All with 50/50 beeswax/Crisco. I will eventually work up to 100 yards if I can get a reasonable group at 50 yds. I am wondering the following based on what I have learned so far.
1. Both bullets fit snugly, probably 1 or 2 1/1000 undersize to the bore. I don't size the bullets, should I?
2. Would I expect to have to bed the barrel with a new Pedersoli?
3. At a 55 grain load, I get popped in the cheek, so I see from prior posts a lighter bullet may shoot better with a lighter charge. But in the event I stay with a heavier charge, do shooters use a pad on the stock and is that allowed by NSSA? Other than reshaping the stock, which I don't want to do, are there any reasonable alternatives?
4. My lube seems to work well and does not foul even after 50 rounds. I am not cleaning the bore while shooting, is this a mistake?
Any other advise beyond what has been mentioned previously?
Thanks, you guys are great!
Larry

[Mike McDaniel]

1. Both bullets fit snugly, probably 1 or 2 1/1000 undersize to the bore. I don't size the bullets, should I?
Not if you're getting good groups. I don't size mine, they are OK straight from the mould.
2. Would I expect to have to bed the barrel with a new Pedersoli?
Possibly, especially in the tang area and under the barrel bands.
3. At a 55 grain load, I get popped in the cheek, so I see from prior posts a lighter bullet may shoot better with a lighter charge. But in the event I stay with a heavier charge, do shooters use a pad on the stock and is that allowed by NSSA? Other than reshaping the stock, which I don't want to do, are there any reasonable alternatives?
Pads are not allowed. Try ~45 grains of 3F Goex or Swiss powder.
4. My lube seems to work well and does not foul even after 50 rounds. I am not cleaning the bore while shooting, is this a mistake?
If you're shooting good groups, don't fiddle with it, just count yourself lucky.
Any other advise beyond what has been mentioned previously?
Go to 3F powder.

[Muley Gil]

Try working up and down from your 45 grains of FFFg load, in 2 grain increments.

Make sure your lead is pure and extremely soft. You should be able to pinch the hollow base of a Minie (make sure it has cooled :D) and bend it.