3 groove vs 5 groove

[Hickok]

Just finished getting my Armisport P-53 3-band Enfield dailed in at 50 and 100 yards. This rifle has a 3 groove, 1/48 twist barrel. It will shoot the RCBS Hodgden minie into 3 inch groups @ 100 yards.

My PH P-58 2 band Enfield just will not shoot the RCBS Hodgden minie at all. It has a 5 groove, 1/48 twist barrel. This rifle shoots very accurate with the Lyman PH 565 minie and the Lee 500 original style minie.

For both rifles, bullets sized .002" below bore size. I tried various charges of Goex 2f and 3f. Just seems in my rifles, the RCBS Hodgden minie loves the 3 groove rifling, and hates the 5 groove rifling. (other rifles may vary)

The Lyman PH 565 minie is PH P-58's favorite bullet, while in the Armisport P-53 the Hodgden minie gets the bullseye.

Did anyone say rifle-muskets are contrite and tempermental????:rolleyes:

[Rich Foster]

Did you try the Hodgon Bullet .001 under bore size with the 5 groove barrel? Rich

[Hickok]

Rich, yea I tried it .001 and .002" under for the PArker Hale.

I have to make a correction, it is sized .001" under for my Armisport. Had to go back and check my log book. To be fair, the RCBS mold is a .580" mold to fit the Armisport .581" bore. I size them in a push through die to .580" for this rifle.

The Parker Hale is a .577" bore, and I sized down in increments to .576" and .575" and neither shot well, 40 gr of 3f up to 55 gr. of 3f. Trying 2f was a waste of powder with this mine, as keyholes resulted.

Honestly, I think the problem could be related to too much sizing down of the bullet for the tighter .577" bore. The bullets look good after sizing, the base is good and square and the lube grooves and bearing bands look good. But too much sizing is never good for a cast bullet.

Anyway, I have good accurate loads for both rifles, the PH minie for one and the Hodgden minie for the other.

A RCBS .578" Hodgden Mold would probably be the best for the PH P-58 2 band.

[Maillemaker]

Just finished getting my Armisport P-53 3-band Enfield dailed in at 50 and 100 yards. This rifle has a 3 groove, 1/48 twist barrel. It will shoot the RCBS Hodgden minie into 3 inch groups @ 100 yards.

My PH P-58 2 band Enfield just will not shoot the RCBS Hodgden minie at all. It has a 5 groove, 1/48 twist barrel. This rifle shoots very accurate with the Lyman PH 565 minie and the Lee 500 original style minie.

For both rifles, bullets sized .002" below bore size. I tried various charges of Goex 2f and 3f. Just seems in my rifles, the RCBS Hodgden minie loves the 3 groove rifling, and hates the 5 groove rifling. (other rifles may vary)

The Lyman PH 565 minie is PH P-58's favorite bullet, while in the Armisport P-53 the Hodgden minie gets the bullseye.

Did anyone say rifle-muskets are contrite and tempermental????:rolleyes:

I get the same results. I believe it is because of the rate of twist.

I've got a P53 Enfield with Whitacre barrel that is 1:72 3-groove. It shoots the RCBS-Hodgdon with similar results to yours. I use 46 grains 3F and Crisco/Beeswax lube.

I also have a Pedersoli P58 with 1:48 and 5 grooves. It will not shoot the RCBS-Hodgon - I get keyholes at 50 yards.

The RCBS-Hodgdon does not like a fast twist, it seems.

I am getting better performance with the Lyman Parker Hale mold, but it drops at .575 and I need a .578 bullet for the P58.

The 1:48 twist needs a longer, heavier bullet.

Steve

[Hickok]

Steve, ain't these rifle-muskets "persnickedy"!

I tried Goex 3F in the 5 groove 1/48 barrel with loads from 40 grains to 55 grains, no joy. Alot of keyholes, and patterns instead of groups. Goex 2f did worse. Got some new cans of 3F, no change. Thought maybe some fowling in the bore, so brushed and cleaned spotless. Nope that didn't help. Maybe the moon and the planets were't in alignment, so I tryed several different shooting sessions some days apart, same results. Load a PH minie or Lee 500 original and the rifle will hit golf balls off the bench at 50 yds.

It really doesn't matter as I have a accurate load for both rifles, just trying to get the Hodgden Minie to shoot well from both.

The Armisport is "supposed" to be a 1 in 48 twist, but maybe it is a 1 in 72, I'll have to run a tight patch down the barrel, mark the ramrod and see if I can check it. But the 3 groove rifling of this barrel shoots the RCBS Hodgden great,.... the 5 groove, yuck!

You just never know sometimes, 'till ya try it!

[Jud96]

Armi Sport P-53s have 1-48 twists. Also, I size a Lyman .580213 down to .576 and these shoot excellent, so even .004 of sizing doesn't hurt. I do use a .575213 to size my Parker Hale P-53 bullets down to .574 because .006 is way to much to swage off of a slug. I have heard many complaints about the RCBS Hodgon bullet keyholing and not performing well. If I were you, I'd stick to the Lyman bullet.

[B-Davis]

Do you have the small or large cores pin inside the the mould? I could never get the RCBS bullet to shoot, but I bought a larger core pin from John Dewalt and since I have done that, it is the best bullet that I have used! My RCBS is .580 and I size to .579 for my .580 bores and for my Parker carbine with original P-H barrel I size the bullet to .576 no problems! My 2 band P-H rifle shoots the same bullet with a Whitacre barrel. All use the same charge, 46 grns. 2F GOEX or KIK.
No keyholes, drops everything in the black!

[Pat in Virginia]

Here is what Bill Curtis had to say in his article, Managing the Enfield, 2001,
http://www.researchpress.co.uk/firearms/british/enfield/management.htm :

"There are two basic mould models which vary only in the depth of the base cavity. A single mould with alternative base plugs will suffice for both Long and Short Rifles. The deep cavity gives a lighter bullet with characteristics which suit the rifling spiral of 78 inches. The shallow cavity and heavier weight of the alternative are best suited to the 48 inch spiral of the Naval and later Army Short Rifles."

If you haven't already read the article, I think you will find it interesting.


Pat in Virginia

[Hickok]

Thanks Pat. Mr. Curtis has to be one of the foremost authorities on the frontloading Enfields.

B-Davis, my mould has the original core pin. It casts a thick skirt. Substituting a larger core pin would probably really help.

[B-Davis]

Give it a try. When I had the thicker skirt the bullet would not work at all!