Update: Experiments with lube and powder and the Moose Wilkinson 580 bullet.

[Maillemaker]

So this weekend I made up 6 batches of cartridges using the Moose 580 Wilkinson sized to .578 to try in my Pedersoli P58 with 1:48 twist.

My first attempt a few weeks ago was using Crisco/Beeswax lube and 3F Shuetzen powder and bullets became crunchy going down the barrel after 2-3 shots. So I wanted to experiment with different lubes and powder.

I didn't have any 3F Goex on hand, so I used 2F Goex.

I made up bullets using 3 different kinds of lube:
2:1 Crisco/Beeswax
1:1 Olive Oil/Beeswax
8:1 Beeswax/Tallow per the 1862 Ordnance Manual

I carefully dipped only the lube ring portion of the Wilkinson bullets in the lube.

I made up cartridges using 50 grains of 2F Goex and 60 grains. I made 15 cartridges for each batch of 60 grains, and 16-17 of each of 50 grains.

The Upshot: As far as I'm concerned, Shuetzen powder burns very dirty, and I'll never buy it again.

All 3 lube choices worked fine, allowing loading through all 15 shots with minimum change in loading effort. The Crisco lube performed best, the Olive Oil lube was nearly equivalent but just a bit worse, and the Tallow lube was the worst, with bullets getting a bit tight but only after 11 or so shots.

I cleaned the barrel after each 15-17 shots of whatever batch I was shooting.

But really, any of these lubes would probably work fine for skirmishing for any course of fire under 20 rounds.

I don't think the lube is the issue - it's the powder.

When I shot the 3F Shuetzen, the first cleaning patch out of the barrel was not just black, it was covered with ash/crust residue. But when I cleaned after shooting the 2F Goex, the patch was black, but there was no obvious residue on the patch.

It seems obvious to me that the Goex powder just burns much more cleanly that the Shuetzen.

Accuracy, however, wasn't great. At 50 yards off a bench I got about a 6-8" group. Now I did get some impressive ragged holes in the paper a couple of times from multiple shots, but still over 15-shots it was a pretty big group. However, on my last course of fire I noticed the front barrel band had come loose so it may not have been a great test as far as accuracy is concerned. Mostly for the test I was looking to see which lubes would work best.

I've got to find a .580 minie mold similar to the Lyman PH mold.

Steve

[Rich Foster]

Steve back off on your powder charges. Try 45-50 grains of goex FF. If you were using 3f I would recommend 42grn 3f goex for your fast 1-48 twist with that wilkenson bullet. I have a gun with the same twist using same bullet 42 fff goex was a dead ringer for that gun. With that powder charge you are using that lighter wilksenson bullet is moving to fast with the 1-48 twist. Rich

[Jud96]

I agree with Rich, try 50grs of Goex FFg.

[Maillemaker]

I shot both 50 and 60 grains 2F Goex.

Steve

[Jud96]

Wow! That's strange it didn't group well. I don't knw what the problem. It sounds like like your doing everything right. You could also check and see if the barrel is bound up against the wood.

[Maillemaker]

Here are the targets:

50 grains 2F Goex:
2:1 Crisco/Beeswax lube: http://i.imgur.com/IPrwKep.jpg
8:1 Beeswax/Tallow lube: http://i.imgur.com/8gWnMAC.jpg
1:1 Olive Oil/Beeswax lube: http://i.imgur.com/vr2csAu.jpg

60 grains 2F Goex:
2:1 Crisco/Beeswax lube: http://i.imgur.com/75Pjvho.jpg
8:1 Beeswax/Tallow lube: http://i.imgur.com/If1Udcp.jpg
1:1 Olive Oil/Beeswax lube: http://i.imgur.com/E8GDCyO.jpg

I considered using less powder but since I had keyholes below 50 grains of 3F Shuetzen I did not. But I will try again.

I also noticed on my last course of fire that the front barrel band had come loose.

Here is one of the Wilkinson bullets to show how I dipped just the tail in the lube:
http://i.imgur.com/CmOzljY.jpg

Here is the first 3 patches down the barrel after shooting 10 or so bullets using 3F Shuetzen:
http://i.imgur.com/kispEgR.jpg

Here is the first patch down the barrel after shooting 15 or so bullets using 2F Goex:
http://i.imgur.com/HVk5LP8.jpg

Since my tubes had a hard time holding 60 grains of powder, I made up period 1855-style cartridges to hold the bullet and powder:
http://i.imgur.com/f7ia1Fq.jpg

It turns out 1855 outer wrappers make good finger puppets!:
http://i.imgur.com/rvOUICq.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/h1tBLup.jpg



Steve

[Rich Foster]

Steve, Don't know what to say. Your not a drinking man are you? Just kidding. If you have that bullet more than .001 under bore it will not group tightly. although 50 grns was not a 2 inch group the gun is grouping. If I had your gun I would size those bullets where I would have to bump the butt with the ramrod on the bullet to get it started down barrel. That would eliminate any question on bullet size. I would start with 7 shots of each 45 grns ff, 47grns and 50grains. Another thing since your shooting off of a bench you should have your hand under forearm grasping it like your standing up shooting it resting on bag. your musket is not high power you cannot rest the gun on a rest just holding it by your trigger hand. Hope any of this helps, Rich

[Maillemaker]

I'm sizing them to .578.

.579 will not start/go down the barrel.

I am not holding the forestock when shooting, I just let the stock sit on the bench rest.

But I have gotten good groups from my other guns this way.

Like I said, I noticed on the last shot that the front barrel band had come loose. I don't know how long it was loose.

Also the stock has not yet been glass bedded.

Steve

[Jud96]

I honestly don't think glass bedding is necessary when we are shooting offhand at 50 and 100yards. Now freeing up your barrel channel and making sure nothing is bound up is important!

[ms3635v]

Steve,

Rich is correct on the powder charge. I am shooting 40 grs. of GOEX 3F with MCM lube in my Whitacre barreled Zouave. I size a .577" Moose Wilkinson to .576", and Rich is correct about bullet to bore fit, the fit at the muzzle is ever so light, but loads easily.

[Hickok]

Steve, remove the tang screw, and then remove the barrel bands. Remove the entire lock assembly. Then replace the tang screw and tighten it down. Does the barrel want to climb out of the barrel channel? If so, a good glass bedding job will tighten up your groups. Also inspect the sides of the barrel so to find any bluing wear from the stock and nose cap. I find the nose cap can really rub hard on barrels many times. I relieve meatal from the nose cap whenever I bed my rifles, so it does not touch the barrel on the bottom or the sides.

Alot of musket stocks have a raised rib of wood in the bottom of the barrel channel from factory inletting that contacts the bottom of the barrel. This has to be removed.

Also the spoon and pin inside the barrel channel that helps retain the ramrod can make heavy contact with the bottom of the barrel. I remove this contraption from my rifles.

[Maillemaker]

Rich is correct on the powder charge. I am shooting 40 grs. of GOEX 3F with MCM lube in my Whitacre barreled Zouave. I size a .577" Moose Wilkinson to .576", and Rich is correct about bullet to bore fit, the fit at the muzzle is ever so light, but loads easily.

I don't have any GOEX 3F and it is hard to get around here. I will experiment with lower charges of the 2F I have though.

We have one vendor in town that sells powder, he usually has KIK which I have heard is equivalent to GOEX?

I'll have to burn up some of this crummy Shuetzen before I can place another bulk mail order for powder.

Steve

[Gary Van Kauwenbergh, 101]

I shoot the Edington Wilkinson .54 bullet out of my relined M1854 Lorenz rifled-muskets. Sized to .539, lube in about 1/4 to 1/3 of the groove, but none on the base, with 43.5 grains of FFFg GOEX. Here's a five-shot group at 50 yards from a bench rest.
2086

[Maillemaker]

I went back and plugged in the XY coordinates of all my shots into my Figure of Merit / Group Size calculator and it turns out that the 1862 Ordnance Manual lube of 8:1 Beeswax/Tallow provided the best group. However, that best group was only 4.11 inches, using 60 grains 2F Goex. 50 grains produced a group of 4.43".

Steve

[Muley Gil]

Steve, don't any of your teammates go to the Nationals? Couldn't one of them bring you back a couple of cans of FFFg Goex and some MCM lube?

[Maillemaker]

We don't have anyone going to the Nationals this time around.

I'm getting some SPG for Christmas, but I don't think it's the lube, I think it's the powder. When I use up the Shuetzen I'm going to go with Swiss.

Steve

[Ron/The Old Reb]

Gary
I also have an Edington Wilkinson mold and I can not get it to group out of my Lorenz. I size it to 537 and have tried 43grs. and 45grs. of 3f Goex. and it shoots all over the place at 50yds. I thought that it might be to much lube. What do you mean 1/3 to 1/4 of the grove? Are you only filling all the groves 1/3 to 1/4 full? And how are you lubing them to only get that much in the groves? I have a 54Cal Lyman Minnie mold and it will shoot nice groups at 50yds with 43grs. of 3f. So it's not the musket.

[Lou Lou Lou]

Ron
Somebody should correct me , but I thought That no lube goes in the single groove. Only lube the bottom ring. Anybody corroborate this?

[ms3635v]

No lube in the compression groove, only on the base. I shoot a .54 caliber Moose Wilkinson in my Euroarms Mississippi with 40 grains of 3F GOEX and get 2" 5-shot groups from the bench. The Mississippi has a .543" bore, so Moose made a .542" Wilkinson for me. The bullet to bore fit is perfect...slight friction when loaded. In my Whitacre barreled Zouave, I shoot a .577" Wilkinson sized to .576" with 40 grains of GOEX 3F. The bullet to barrel fit is the same as the Mississippi. I lube both bullets (.54 and .577) only on the base with MCM. Both load easily during a match and clean-up is easy as well. These bullets are very accurate. The bullet should be sized before being lubed.

[Maillemaker]

Here is my .580 Wilkinson sized to .578, dipped in lube.

http://i.imgur.com/C1TdQbc.jpg

Steve

[Ron/The Old Reb]

The Edington bullet has two compression groves. I am lubing both of the groves that is probably my problem. I'll give it a shot.
Dang! just cleaned it yesterday now I gotta dirty it again.

Thanks
Ron

[Ron/The Old Reb]

I tried lubing my Eddyington bullets the same as Millemakers with Lens lube just on the base. Loaded them with 43.5grs. 3F Goex. First I fired one with the all the groves lubed like I have been doing. High at 10 O'Clock and keyed holed at 50yds. Then shot three 5 shot strings, at 50yds, with just the base lubed. PRESTO! One inch groups and no flyer's or key holes. Problem solved. Thanks for the help.

[tackdriver]

I know Ive asked this before but I cant find the thread...

Does anyone remove the lube from the bottom of the bullet? I'd think that wax there would stick to and interfere with some of the powder charge...??

[ms3635v]

Some people do. I don't and have been shooting the Wilkinson with lube on the bottom and have not experienced any negative effects. For me, the lube on the bottom helps keep the fouling soft.