FYI - Gunbroker Warning

[oscarlovel]

I'm afraid I have gotten myself in a bit of a crunch. Was cruising Gunbroker the other day and came across a repro 1842 Smoothbore. The auction had a couple of days to go and the bidding was around $350, so I put in a bid thinking it was an Armisport and in all likelihood I would never win it. Only after bidding did I take a real close look at the breech. It didn't look right. Further investigation on the internet revealed this was an Indian musket being sold by Veteranarms, LLC in Georgia. Nothing in the description said that. Further reading and searches revealed that these muskets had to be exported from India as display objects-de-art or else be proofed at the Indian facilities in accordance with Indian Law. I also saw where some of these have had barrel failures, and IIRC, John Holland has said the barrels will not be approved in N-SSA by SAC.

IMHO, the failure to disclose that these were originally manufactured in India as display pieces is deceptive advertising. In no way would I have ever bid had I known the item was from India. I contacted the seller after winning the auction and offered to settle for $100 and he could relist the item. He declined and said he would take my $100 and charge me the difference between the new selling price and what my final bid was plus fees. I might have gone along with that but then he sent me an invoice to pay by credit card for the full amount plus shipping. I refused, he filed negative feedback and is now preparing to file a non-paying bidder claim against me. I will probably lose my Gunbroker account even though I have an A+ (125) rating, but I cannot see how I should pay for something that was not manufactured as a firearm, but as a display piece. I have repeatedly asked him to show whether the item was proof marked and he has repeatedly ducked the question, instead resorting to calling me "stupid" and a "jerk". My point with this post is not to seek approval or disapproval for my situation, but to warn you all, and especially our newcomers that this guy is out there and on Gunbroker selling these 1842's. His GB name is Nactorman, and all I can say is buyer beware. :mad::mad:

[Maillemaker]

Hard to believe you'd lose your account with 125 positive transactions.

You might want to write to the Gunbroker people and explain the situation.

I think offering to pay the guy $100 for his trouble is more than fair.

Steve

[GPM]

I had trouble with a seller misrepresenting an item on gunbroker a few years back. Long story short, it can work more to your favor than you think to e-mail your side of the story to gunbroker.

[jonk]

..........I have mixed feelings here. On one hand, you're absolutely right, he should have said right up front that it was a non-firing replica intended for wall hanging only. On the other hand, you should never have bid on it if you weren't absolutely sure what you were getting into. A case of not disclosing the full truth vs. not exactly lying.

I think your response was indeed more than fair, but that said, if he didn't say specifically "this is a firing gun" and then send you something else, i.e. he didn't pull a bait and switch, to ME, you are still on the hook for it as a binding contract. For the full price. Caveat empor. Personally if it were me and he wouldn't let me out of it, I'd suck it up, pay what I bid, and leave him neutral C feedback- then see if I could use the lock and stock and bands and such, if they were otherwise in spec and buy a new barrel from someone. Still you'd probably be no more into it than a new armi sport.

[oscarlovel]

..........I have mixed feelings here. On one hand, you're absolutely right, he should have said right up front that it was a non-firing replica intended for wall hanging only. On the other hand, you should never have bid on it if you weren't absolutely sure what you were getting into. A case of not disclosing the full truth vs. not exactly lying.

I think your response was indeed more than fair, but that said, if he didn't say specifically "this is a firing gun" and then send you something else, i.e. he didn't pull a bait and switch, to ME, you are still on the hook for it as a binding contract. For the full price. Caveat empor. Personally if it were me and he wouldn't let me out of it, I'd suck it up, pay what I bid, and leave him neutral C feedback- then see if I could use the lock and stock and bands and such, if they were otherwise in spec and buy a new barrel from someone. Still you'd probably be no more into it than a new armi sport.

Gunbroker Auction #361987094. Look it up and review it if you want. He lists it as factory new. He then says it is "fully functional and can be used for hunting, sport shooting, or reenacting." According to the Federal Trade Commission, failing to disclose information in advertising that misleads people is deceptive advertising and is a violation of law. I suppose I should buy it and file an FTC complaint, but why bother. Right now, to buy it, I would have to fork over $510. Then I would have to spend another $350 + shipping on a Whitacre barrel, and then spend the time and effort to fit the barrel to the stock and lock, assuming they are at all compatable. Figure nearly $1K before it is all over, and maybe it will be acceptable to our SAC, but no way to know at this point. On the other hand, I can buy a new one from Lodgewood (ArmiSport) for $825 + shipping. Frankly, my GB account isn't worth wasting nearly $1K on a gamble at best. Should I have done more investigation before I bid -- indeed, yes. But to be honest, in all my transactions on GB and my 770+ positive transactions on Ebay, I have never encountered a business that operated with such deceit and rudeness to the customer. As I said in my original post, I am not trying to win support or opposition here, merely to warn some other dumb sucker like myself about this operation.

[Maillemaker]

I read the auction description.

He is clearly listing this as a functional firearm.



Offered is a new reproduction 1842 Springfield musket. This reproduction is fully functional and can be used for hunting, sport shooting, or reenacting.-----------The outside of the barrel on this piece was not turned down enough on the lathe and is slightly oversized. This makes fitting a bayonet to the piece problematic. The bayonet would need to be modified to fit, or the piece could be cut down to create a really beautiful carbine.--------------The piece is offered with no reserve. Shipping to the continental US is $50. No international sales. Sold as-is with no refund or exchange.

So my first question is, has the breech been drilled out to actually fire? If not, you can't use it for hunting or reenacting or sport shooting.

If it has been converted to fire, I think you still have a case because as far as I'm concerned these were not intended to be shot and were not manufactured as such.

Have you confirmed that this firearm is in fact not an Armisport and is one of the Indian knock-offs?

I think you are perfectly in your rights to walk away if it is a display piece and I would write to Gunbroker and explain your position.

I'd be really pissed if someone sold me a "fully functional" reproduction and it turned out it was a display piece that a vendor had drilled a touch hole in to make it a pretty pipe bomb.

Steve

[jonk]

Gunbroker Auction #361987094. Look it up and review it if you want. He lists it as factory new. He then says it is "fully functional and can be used for hunting, sport shooting, or reenacting." According to the Federal Trade Commission, failing to disclose information in advertising that misleads people is deceptive advertising and is a violation of law. I suppose I should buy it and file an FTC complaint, but why bother. Right now, to buy it, I would have to fork over $510. Then I would have to spend another $350 + shipping on a Whitacre barrel, and then spend the time and effort to fit the barrel to the stock and lock, assuming they are at all compatable. Figure nearly $1K before it is all over, and maybe it will be acceptable to our SAC, but no way to know at this point. On the other hand, I can buy a new one from Lodgewood (ArmiSport) for $825 + shipping. Frankly, my GB account isn't worth wasting nearly $1K on a gamble at best. Should I have done more investigation before I bid -- indeed, yes. But to be honest, in all my transactions on GB and my 770+ positive transactions on Ebay, I have never encountered a business that operated with such deceit and rudeness to the customer. As I said in my original post, I am not trying to win support or opposition here, merely to warn some other dumb sucker like myself about this operation.
Given that description, then yes, absolutely you are correct. As I said, he said it was a firing gun, useful for all the things you say, so agreed- you're 100 percent in the right.

I wondered about that outfit, I stumbled across their webpage and they appeared to have some fine prices... now I know why.

[R. McAuley 3014V]

FYI. Track of the Wolf has a very similar (very misleading) advert for one of the Indian-made "non-firing" repro Enfields.

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/493/1/AAL-912

[Jack C., 69th NY]

Clint,
There seems to be no doubt that this seller has carefully worded his multiple listings, leading one to believe one thing, while carefully covering up the true facts of the items for sale. Do a Google search for the legal term "Fraud in the Inducement". I am not a lawyer but it appears that you relied on his description of the item and bid accordingly. I do not know if that will get you any satisfaction? Also, one negative feedback in 125 transactions, tho' painful to you, is not the end of the world, especially if you read the feedback. I hope you get some relief from this bum!

[Jim Haag, 4805]

Clint,Maybe you should have bought my smoothbore when we talked.

[Maillemaker]

I tell ya, these junk guns on the market are worrying to me. A lot of people won't know the difference or know that they were not manufactured to be actual firearms. Even when the inevitable lawsuit gets them shut down there will be a lot of them out there.

Steve

[RaiderANV]

Don't pay him CHIT. I had a similar problem 4 years thereabouts ago. I emailed gunbroker pointing out gun unsafe and NOT as listed. They removed his negative feedback, left mine on his and warned him with a suspension of a couple weeks. It's clearly misrepresented.

[terrydull]

I'm new to this ... but I'm not new to firearms. Here is what Veteran's Arms says about their muskets (from their web site):

Are Veteran Arms’ muskets real firearms? Can they be fired live?

Yes. All of our muskets are fully functional and may be fired live with powder and ball. As with any muzzleloading firearm, however, care should be taken to follow the proper loading and firing procedures. Each musket is shipped with an owners manual that outlines the specifications for that musket including the recommended powder charge and ball size. All of our weapons are designed to fire black powder ONLY. Smokeless powders and blackpowder substitutes should never be used. NEVER exceed the recommended powder charge.

I felt good after reading that; However, then I read this:

Have muskets and pistols been proofed?

During our first two years of operation, we proofed each and every weapon we sold. Recently, we have had to discontinue the proofing of each weapon because of the excessive time and labor involved. Of the many pieces we have proofed, we have never had a piece fail in proofing. For more information on proofing, Click Here (http://veteranarms.com/ReproductionMuzzleloadersandFlintlocks/Proofing.html).

Gee ... I wish they would still test fire their products :confused:

Then I felt even worse when I read this:

Where are Veteran Arms’ products made?

All of Veteran Arms’ muskets, pistols, and bayonets are made by experienced craftsmen in India.

Well, I for one will not be buying anything from this company.

Thanks for your "heads up" and sorry for your trouble. I'd take the negative feedback and not pay the guy if you have proof these things are UN-safe to fire.

Good luck to you,
Terry

[Maillemaker]

My take is simple. If it wasn't manufactured to be a firearm, then it isn't a firearm.

These guys are playing games to take advantage of legal loopholes.

Sooner or later it's going to bite them in the butt.

Steve

[Hickok]

Clint I've been following this thread and I agree it seems there was some "shickanery" involved in the description. Hope you get it straightened out.

The rifle sounds like a "Khyber Pass" musket made on a dirt floor hut with rasps and files!

[Mike w/ 34th]

Clint,

You're probably right to think that GB will come down on the seller's side, but you probably won't lose your account if this is the first time you've had a NPB report filed. It used to be two NPBs and you were gone.

I lost my account because a seller sold me a gun that he didn't actually have, and I called shenanigans on him. Gunbroker's office staff told me in no uncertain terms that Gunbroker was there for the convenience of the sellers, not the buyers, since the buyers don't pay the fees, and if I wanted my account back, I had to send the fraudster $800. Needless to say, that didn't happen, and I've been taking my business elsewhere for the last 10 years.

[R Filbert]

Clint,Maybe you should have bought my smoothbore when we talked.

From what I hear- These barrels are made in a Jaguar manufacturing plant and are made of steel comparable to 4140 hot rolled cold drawn - I purchased a 1795 flint lock which had to be drilled to shoot- I pulled the barrel from the stock an tied it to a tire so as not to bust the wood should it blow- I measured (od) with calipers before and after proof testing my self with 150 grains of 3f and 2 balls put a fuse in the vet and got way back- lit it off- Made one heck of a boom! Didn't blow? Re measured the (od) carefully .All was good SAC will not approve the India barrels but all is good as I intend to have Dan make one for it. As to the barrels that have blown with reactors usually user error - Like the fellow who fell with his Brown bess in the mud with a double charge of powder -Didn't check the muzzle and lit it off any way- THAT created a problem! We cant blame others for not checking things out The musket I bought is pretty nice and fires every time- You don't have to pack it like a cannon to shoot well! You also save powder that way But the dealer in question should have told you that the arm was made in India. Just my 2cents worth. R Filbert Capt. Hazelwood Vol.

[R. McAuley 3014V]

"The proving of barrels, with a view to the security of the public, is a subject which has received the careful attention of the legislature. In 1637 a charter was granted by Charles I to the gunmakers of London, for proving all manner of guns made within ten miles of London. In Birmingham the proof of barrels was left to each individual manufacturer, till in 1813 a public proof house was erected in Banbury Street, and an Act passed rendering compulsory the proving of all barrels made in England, either at the proof house in London or Birmingham.

A second Act, giving more extended powers, was passed in 1815. These regulations worked well for Birmingham, and the security which was felt in English guns materially aided in obtaining for our trade the high reputation which it enjoys. No change was made in the system pursued till 1855, when the inventions of modern times called for fresh regulations. They were embodied in an Act of Parliament passed in that year, which remains still in force. The security of the user was very greatly increased by the provisions of this Act. Under the previous one, barrels were proved only once, and that in a rather early stage of manufacture. It followed that certain descriptions of guns, as, for instance, rifles when grooved, and double guns when joined together, were weakened after proof, and sometimes rendered unsafe.

The present Act [of 1855] requires that all barrels shall be proved twice, once “provisionally,” as the Act terms it, and a second time “definitively,” when the barrels are in a finished state, ready for setting up. The first proof may be regarded as for the protection of the gunmaker, to secure him from the loss that would arise from bestowing his labour on an unsound barrel; the second proof protects the user."

From "On the Progress of the Small Arms Manufacture", by J. D. Goodman, Chairman of the Birmingham Small Arms Company (1861-1900), in Journal of the Statistical Society of London, Vol. 28, No. 4 (Dec 1865), p494-506.

Veteran Arms seemingly hold the opinion that barrel proofing is an necessary waste of their time and labor. But clearly, they care nothing for their customer's safety!

[Edwin Flint]

Too many Indian made barrels have failed with no known cause. I have seen four failures personally on reenactor pieces. No apparent cause. Improper cleaning on all was present, but if barrel was any good, that should not have caused failure. All failures were either splits on what appeared to be a weld seam or seperation from breach plug/tang. On one some shrapnel had been made. No serious injuries to my knowledge.

These things are shipped as decorations into this country. No way they should be made fireable.

[Hickok]

http://www.n-ssa.org/vbforum/showthread.php/3847-OOPS!-Exploding-Enfield-!!!

[John Holland]

A thank you to Hickok for retrieving that old thread. I hope everyone understands why the N-SSA can not allow these imports to be used in our competitive matches.

JDH

[Hickok]

John you are welcome. I have been involved in various shooting sports over the years, and I understand "Safety is paramount." If in doubt, NO.