Musings on lube and powder.

[Maillemaker]

A couple of weeks ago I had posted about my attempts to shoot the new Moose Wilkinson 580. It's a fantastic bullet to cast and you can really crank them out with the double-cavity mold. But I was only able to get 2 or 3 shots off before they became very crunchy going down the barrel.

Based on everyone's input, I assumed that with its limited lube carrying capability the problem was my dirty Shuetzen powder and my too-hard crisco/beeswax lube. I concluded that to use it you need a quality powder and a quality lube. I've shelved the Wilkinson until I can get some of both.

Today I was doing some 100 yard musket practice using RCBS-Hodgdon bullets with my beeswax/crisco lube. I was using 46 grains of Shuetzen 3F. I can shoot about 7 shots of this before bullets start sticking in the barrel and I have to ping them with the ramrod a couple of times to break them free and seat them all the way down. But it's generally not a show-stopper in team shooting and off the bench I was able to cut a ragged hole with 3 shots in the black:

http://i.imgur.com/lar5JbJ.jpg

For fun, I switched to shooting some period cartridges I had made up. These are paper cartridges made to the 1855 style. You remove the bullet from the paper - no paper goes down the barrel. These bullets were RCBS-500M minies charged with 48 grains of Goex 2F. The bullets are traditional minnies with 3 shallow lube grooves. I made a period lube per the ordinance manual of 8 parts beeswax to 1 part tallow. The lube on these bullets looks like wax when you remove the bullet from the paper. It is definitely not "gooey" like, say, Len's Lube. It is a hard waxy lube:

http://i.imgur.com/sBh3x.jpg

But these bullets shot fantastically. I believe I could shoot them indefinitely. They loaded easily from first shot to last. I think I shot 15-20 shots and could easily have kept on going.

Now my conventional wisdom about lube has been that the runnier the better it works to keep the fouling soft. In fact I figured the idea was to have the runniest lube you could that wouldn't melt off your bullets in the summer heat.

But this period lube recipe is most definitely not runny. In fact I don't think they could tolerate runny, greasy lubes in period because it would foul the paper cartridges and the grease/oil would wick into the paper.

So here I am with a period style minnie with shallow grease grooves and a hard, waxy lube and I'm getting way better loading performance than with the RCBS-Hodgdon with it's massive lube groove and my beeswax/crisco lube.

Could it be that this 3F Shuetzen powder that I'm putting behind the RCBS-Hodgdon is really is crappy, dirty burning powder compared to the 2F Goex I'm putting behind the RCBS-500M?

I'm just amazed how well this period "hard" lube is performing with a traditional minnie ball. Once again I am astounded at how smart the people in various times of history were.

Here are the results of shooting the 500M with period lube from a bench:

http://i.imgur.com/zlHzwER.jpg

And here are the results of shooting it off hand:

http://i.imgur.com/aqIRvqS.jpg

Steve

[jonk]

Schutzen is strange stuff. I was a firm believer in it until I shot some strings over a chronograph; go read my report in the tips and tricks forum. Suffice to say and summarize, for minie balls I think it's junk. For anything that the round sizes down such as a carbine or cartridge ammo, or for round balls, it's fine. That said, fouling is different from goex, not worse; it's a little softer but there's a bit more of it I find.

Here's my wager on what is happening. To me, the lube in the grooves accomplishes two things, in order of importance. First, it helps form a seal with the bore to prevent blow by gas. To achieve that you don't want something overly runny, or it blasts out and doesn't do that job. You can get by with something pretty soft though. In the base of the minie, something runny is fine so long as it doesn't melt. Second, it DOES help keep fouling soft; this is a nice bonus and has to do with reload rate and cleaning more than accuracy.

That said, a harder lube in the grooves should work just fine, so long as it is ductile yet and not brittle, and compatible with bp.

I think the woes lie in the Schutzen; given its abysmal performance in terms of velocity and standard deviation (again, see my other post) I think that it isn't bumping up the bullet enough and the blow by is also removing the lube from the grooves.

[Maillemaker]

I saw your other post on the Shuetzen and it's inconsistent velocities.

I think it's a dirtier powder than Goex. I'm going to make up some more RCBS-500M bullets with the period lube and use the Shuetzen powder and see if they are harder to load than the Goex. I'm betting they will be.

However, I am intrigued by your idea of blow-by.

Now my bullets are sized as tight as they can be and still load, but what if the lube is too runny and it is getting blown off the bullets? The harder waxy period lube may be functioning like modern bullet lube and traveling down the barrel with the bullet.

Steve

[Rich Foster]

Steve, I am glad your trial and error is working for you. It is how you learn no matter what anybodyelse says. Hard work in the kitchen and at the range is what puts one shooter above the other. If you always do what other people do and you hit a hard spot all you can say is Help! Now you are learning. Oh yeah the Minie ball was designed back then to shoot in your gun to shoot long range not 50yds like the wadcutter design bullets. So when you can drop those minies is a 2" or smaller group of bench at 100yds it should chew 1" hole at 50. The 460-500grn minieball is the most consistant bullet for these civil guns when it comes to wind and there is usually some type of wind. I use to shoot those lighter bullets but then skirmishing got expensive faster than my pay and having bad skirmishes because of windy weather push me back to the minie, Yes more powder, Yes more recoil, Yes more lead but the results is more consistant shots no matter what weather I shot in. Which makes the money I spend doing everything it cost to skirmish worth it. Good Luck, Rich

[tony 1st regt]

I shoot the hogdon sized .001 below bore dia with Goex 3F and 25% beeswax and 75% crisco measured by weight in a hoyt 2 band springfield barrel. I do not clean the bore between team relays, have no trouble loading, been using this load for 10yrs +

[Rich Foster]

Steve, If your fouling is close to the breech your lube is to soft and if it fouls towards the muzzle it is to hard. It is not how much you use but the right mixture for each gun. Fun isn't it. Rich

[Rob FreemanWBR]

Steve,

I doubt your fouling problems are due to your powder, but then I’ve never used Shuetzen. However, I do know that lube (especially old lube) is a key contributing factor in fouling. In addition, using incorrectly sized rounds is also another causal factor. Bore diameter is crucia!. Many skirmishers try to counter fouling’s effects by using smaller projectiles, as they're obviously easier to seat as the barrel becomes fouled. But in using smaller rounds the shooter is setting themself up for the very real potential of fouling from the start.

I can shoot my Fayetteville (Whittaker barrel, Hogdon bullet, Goex 3F) all day long - as long as the lube I use (Crisco & Bee's Wax) is "fresh" (i.e. applied no more than 7 - 8 weeks earlier). I’ve also shot ammo that I loaded earlier the same day without issue, so using "soft" lube won’t contribute to fouling. I never swab my musket's bore when on the line, and I've never encountered any fouling/loading issues.

Bottom line: if you want to effectively address your fouling issues, I strongly recommend both fresh lube & properly sized rounds.

I hope this helps!

[Rich Foster]

Fouling is created by Blackpowder and the condition or grade of the powder will contribute to the amount of fouling. Lube keeps blackpowder fouling under control. You can control low grade black powder but you have to stay on top of it because of the various conditions of excessive dirty blackpowder. I got some 3f goex that will make you go crazy when using it. If you have never had any bad (dirty or inconsistant) Blackpowder you should feel lucky. It took me 34 years until it found me. Rich

[Maillemaker]

I shoot the hogdon sized .001 below bore dia with Goex 3F and 25% beeswax and 75% crisco measured by weight in a hoyt 2 band springfield barrel. I do not clean the bore between team relays, have no trouble loading, been using this load for 10yrs +

Starting to see a pattern here... :)


Steve, If your fouling is close to the breech your lube is to soft and if it fouls towards the muzzle it is to hard. It is not how much you use but the right mixture for each gun. Fun isn't it. Rich

In my Enfield, the bullet usually harder to push down the barrel near the muzzle and eases up as I get towards the breech. I assumed this is because the Whitacre barrel has progressive-depth rifling.


Bottom line: if you want to effectively address your fouling issues, I strongly recommend both fresh lube & properly sized rounds.

My RCBS-Hodgdon bullets with Crisco/Beeswax were a week old and I size them to within .001 of the bore. The next size up won't load.

But the RCBS-500M bullets with the period lube, stored in period paper cartridges, are probably going on 6 months old. And I could shoot them indefinitely. But they were charged with Goex powder.

To satisfy myself on this question, I'm going to make up some more RCBS-500M bullets and lube them with the period 8:1 Beeswax:Tallow lube and charge them with the Shuetzen powder. I'm betting they foul.

Steve

[ms3635v]

Steve,

I just returned home from the range. I shot my Zouave with the Whitacre barrel and a .577" Moose Wilkinson sized to .576" and lubed with MCM. I had no fouling issues after 25 shots. I finished my practice session at the 25 round mark, and each round still loaded without difficulty, and clean-up required little effort. I use 40 grains of GOEX 3f. I have been shooting this bullet since right after the Spring Nationals. But as Rich has indicated in his post sometimes it takes a little bit of tinkering to get the right lube to work with your powder/bullet combination.

[Maillemaker]

Great report, Mike. Another possible nod for Goex.

Steve

[B-Davis]

I also have found that Goex or KIK powders are exactly the same in performance. There seems to be no change (by volume) in charge performance. I have three rifles and one carbine (front stuffer) that all like the RCBS Hogden bullet sized to .577 with 46 grains of 2F.
I took out the Richmond rifle I just finished on Friday to the range, and was shooting rounds that were 8 months old. The lube was beeswax/Crisco in equal parts. Posted below are the last 5 rounds I shot off hand at 50 yds. I flinched once. (Obvious flinch)
I fired over 40 rounds that day, and had NO problems loading, and never cleaned the bore until I got home.

2044