Review: Shooting the Moose 580-450 Wilkinson.

[Maillemaker]

Today I took the afternoon off and went to the range to try out my Moose 580-450 Wilkinson bullets I had made.

I made up cartridges in batches of 40, 45, and 50 grains of 3F Shuetzen. Powder was measured on a digital scale to within +/- .2 grains.

Bullets were weighed and only those within +/- .05% were kept.

I shot at 50 yards, off a bench rest. Point of aim was dead center of the 4" black circle.

The bullet appears to require a little more "bang" to compress its accordion-like neck than expanding balls seem to need to expand. Shooting 40 and 45 grains resulted in several keyholes in the target from tumbling bullets.

But once I got to 50 grains, boy howdy! I had one flyer, but the other 9 shots made a nice 2.53" group. 6 of those shots made a single ragged hole in the paper!

This is probably the best group I have ever shot with this rifle, and finally I'm getting some results that are in line with what I expect of my own shooting ability, which I had begun to seriously question lately! :)

Tomorrow I am going to make some cartridges with 55 and 60 grain charges.

Pictures of targets are here:

http://imgur.com/a/4fMCW

The only problem I am having is with my lube. I made a batch of lube with 50/50 beeswax and crisco, with just a dash of olive oil. I dipped the Wilkinson bullets in the lube.

But I can only load about 4 shots before they start feeling crunchy going down the barrel, and after 6 I have to jackhammer the ramrod to get them to go down. I'm thinking the lube is too hard. When I pick up the re-solidified block of it and tap it on the kitchen counter it sounds like a block of wood.

Am I correct that the softer the lube the better, so long as it doesn't melt sitting in the cartridge box?

I'm really interested in this MCM lube - wish I could find an online source.

[Rich Foster]

Looks like your on the right track. Yes you need to soften your lube by adding 10 -15% more crisco. Back 13 years ago Greg Eddington and I kept in touch when he redisgned that bullet ( i have one of the first batch) and I have spoken to him recently about mooses wilkensen bullet. Your findings are correct you are going have to boost up the powder charge. Greg said I would have to boost up charge by 3 grains over the amount of goex using mooses bullet. Never tried powder you are using but my gun has the same fast twist yours has. For that said between 45-50 grains of goex ( do not know ratio between goex and shutz. powder) is what I would think would work but you have to solve that fouling problem first so you can get a true group. That bullet cannot be more that .001 smaller than bore and do not beat on the nose of that bullet push it down till it stops and maybe a slight tap to make sure it is all the way down. At fifty yards with that bullet you should be looking at no more than a 1-1/2 group off bench. WIth Gregs wilkensen bullet at 50yds it will shoot through the same hole at 50yds of bench with my .54 Jeager short rifle. Soften your lube. 1 - no more than .001 underbore size and 2- do not beat on top of that bullet. If you need a precise sizing die give Tom Crone a call. Hope this helps. Rich

[ms3635v]

40 grains of GOEX 3F with a .577" Moose Wilkinson sized to .576" and lubed with MCM produces 1 1/2" groups from the bench fired from my Whitacre Zouave barrel. As Rich said, size is critical. I found sized .001" under bore size loaded easily and is the correct size for the best results. I am glad to see the Wilkinson is producing nice groups in Enfield rifles and rifle muskets.

[Rich Foster]

Mike, your right on with that powder charge. That is what shot good in my .54 bill large barrel. He is going to have to solve fouling problem before he finds the correct powder charge. I have a fast twist bore with the Jeager and 42grn of goex will drop them right on top the other but my bullet weight is a lighter 412 grains. At 45 grains of powder you thought I was shooting a shotgun. Yeah he has to get fouling under control, make sure he has right sized bullet and do not damage that bullet loading it. Rich

[Maillemaker]

This is a Whitacre P53 barrel with a 1:72 twist at .577 with progressive depth rifling. I am sizing to .576 with a Lyman Lubrisizer and S&S sizing dies. Of course with the Wilkinson I am not lubing, just sizing.

I'm going to make a new batch of lube today before I head back to the range.

From the recent post comparing Goex 3F to Shuetzen 3F over a chronograph, it appears that Shuetzen is a bit weaker than Goex. The tester also said he did not get as consistent results with Shuetzen. But that's what I just bought 10 pounds of so that's what I'm using.

I've got 5 pounds of Goex 2X but I had switched to 3F as it seemed that is what most folks were using in their rifle muskets and rifles.

Steve

[Rich Foster]

Steve, Here is a wilkenson bullet retrieved from backstop using 40grn 3f goex from my Bill large barrel. Notice how far up the lands are cut into bullet above the compresion ring. So more than just lower band is getting expanded. of course i have never had this bullet keyhole so it is either low powder, bullet to small or fouling build up. Good luck at the range. Waiting to see your findings. Rich

[Maillemaker]

Since I shot all my bullets into my "bullet bucket", I can recover all of them. But I won't be able to tell which came from which powder load, of course.

Steve

[Jim Mulligan 7288V]

I shoot this bullet in my 1855 rifle, Hoyt Jensco 8 L&G barrel, sized .576"' 40g Goex fff lubed with SPG. I shot a target last week at 50 yards with 3 rounds in one ragged hole. Too bad they were in the 8 ring. Once I adjusted my stance the final two rounds were in the 9 ring. The bullet also performs great at 100 yards. Easy to cast, shoot great, nice combination.

[Maillemaker]

I emptied my bullet bucket and recovered all of my rounds.

I could not discern any rifling on any of the bullets, but they are obviously pretty beat up.

There were several, found near the top of the bucket, that had clearly impacted on their sides, which were probably tumblers. I had hoped that the bullets near the bottom of the bucket, having flown more true, would show rifling, but I could not make it out.

One thing I could make out was bits of lube still on the the bullets. Which tells me that it is too hard to get melted/vaporized/pumped/slung off the bullet onto the barrel.

Today I took my 50/50 lube which was made of 1 pound of Criso (2-1/3 cup when melted) and 2-1/3 cup of melted beeswax and added another pound of Crisco, making it 66% Crisco and 33% Beeswax (2/1 ratio). I'm going to re-dip all the bullets and try again.

I'm also going to break down all the remaining 40 and 45 grain cartridges and work up loads in 50, 55, and 60 grains 3F Shuetzen.

Also these bullets were cast out of 99.9% pure lead purchased virgin from Rotometals.com.

Also I sized up a .577 bullet and it will not fit down the barrel, so .576 is definitely the maximum bullet size.

http://i.imgur.com/TAF4Ljf.jpg

[medic302]

definatly more powder, they should compress way more than in your photo. I'm shooting 65grns 3F swiss in my pedersoli P53.

[ms3635v]

Rich,

Great photo! If you look at a Wilkinson before it's been shot you will note there is a portion of the nose, just above the compression groove, that does not flow with the contour of the nose, it is a very slight straight edge, mic'd out at .080". This portion of the nose is cut that way so rifling will engage there as well as the base.



2015

[Maillemaker]

I'm sizing the .580 down to .576 and I definitely have a band around the base of the ogive.

I think I'm just not using enough powder. This Shuetzen is definitely weaker powder than Goex.

When you look at Rich's photo, the base has literally bent back on itself. Mine don't even appear to be moving.

I've got a new batch of 50, 55, and 60's made up.

Problem is, with the plastic cap plugs I don't think I can put any more than 60 grains of powder in and still get the bullet in.

I've got some rubber tubes; they might hold a little more powder.

Steve

[j.howardcycles]

Myself and a team mate shoot the wilkinson bullets made from moose`s moulds. Our bores are .577. The mould is the .577. We do not size the wilkinson bullets. Just dip the vary base of in into spg. Then set aside to cool. Then scrap off the lube on the bottom of it. The only lube is on the small ring around the base. The powder is swiss 3f at 34 gr. The barrels are bobby hoyt relines.two are 3 and one is 6 grove. All three make one ragged hole at 50 and about a 2" group at 100. We have no problem getting the bullets down the barrel with the swiss and spg no matter how many bullets fired and they still group. The bullet when placed on top of the muzzle will not just slide in on its own. We must put a little force on it to start it into the rifling. But after the rifling is cut into the bullet . It will just go down with only the ramrod sitting on top of it.

[Maillemaker]

Myself and a team mate shoot the wilkinson bullets made from moose`s moulds. Our bores are .577. The mould is the .577. We do not size the wilkinson bullets. Just dip the vary base of in into spg. Then set aside to cool. Then scrap off the lube on the bottom of it. The only lube is on the small ring around the base. The powder is swiss 3f at 34 gr. The barrels are bobby hoyt relines.two are 3 and one is 6 grove. All three make one ragged hole at 50 and about a 2" group at 100. We have no problem getting the bullets down the barrel with the swiss and spg no matter how many bullets fired and they still group. The bullet when placed on top of the muzzle will not just slide in on its own. We must put a little force on it to start it into the rifling. But after the rifling is cut into the bullet . It will just go down with only the ramrod sitting on top of it.

Clearly I am doing something wrong. I will try my 2/1 Crisco/Beeswax and see what happens.

I can't believe that tiny amount of lube is giving you that kind of loading performance.

Steve

[j.howardcycles]

Steve
it is a combination of the clean burning swiss 3f and the spg lube. It could be more to do with the swiss powder than the lube. But you can believe it.

[j.howardcycles]

Steve
question. Can you post a photo of one of your unfired bullets that is lubed ? It maybe helpful to see how much lube and where you have it.

[Maillemaker]

I double-dipped my original batch, once with the hard lube and then with the softer lube, so their necks are a bit clogged with lube. On the left is a single-dip.

http://i.imgur.com/KZoKWzk.jpg

Steve

[j.howardcycles]

The one you double dipped. Has way to much lube in the compression grove. You can have a vary small amount of lube in there . However i like none in the grove. You have tried all else. See if this works for you. Get some swiss 3f and some spg lube. Just dip the base in. About like the bullet you have on the left. Then after cooling scrap the lube off the bottom. Try 34gr now this is by wight . I do this for more consistency .see if it works for you.go up on the charge some if you like. But swiss is about 14% stronger than other powders per the same amount . So you do not use as much. Also your bullet should fit snugly in the barrel when you first start it .

[j.howardcycles]

I was just looking at the bullet photos again. Looking at the left one. It looks as if the compression grove is just a straight shaft between the base and the upper part of the bullet. If this is so. Then it was not made correctly. Post a photo of the compression grove so i can see it . No lube please.

[Maillemaker]

The one you double dipped. Has way to much lube in the compression grove. You can have a vary small amount of lube in there . However i like none in the grove. You have tried all else. See if this works for you. Get some swiss 3f and some spg lube. Just dip the base in. About like the bullet you have on the left. Then after cooling scrap the lube off the bottom. Try 34gr now this is by wight . I do this for more consistency .see if it works for you.go up on the charge some if you like. But swiss is about 14% stronger than other powders per the same amount . So you do not use as much. Also your bullet should fit snugly in the barrel when you first start it .

I understand the need for there to be a gap in the compression groove and that if you pack it full of lube the bullet can't compress due to hydrostatic lock. I'm just very skeptical that with the Swiss powder I'm using that just filling that tiny grease groove with lube won't be enough. I'm also allowing it to pool on the base face of the bullet in the hopes that some of that will vaporize and help soften the fouling.

If it doesn't rain, I'm going to the range tomorrow. I'll take some pictures of my cleaning patches after firing 5 shots. The first patch is just flaky black.

I guess I can see why that Swiss powder costs so much.

I am using a .576 sized bullet. A .577 sized bullet will not start in a clean barrel. So I am confident that I have the tightest fit achievable.

This is from the Moose Molds facebook page. My bullets look just like this:

http://i.imgur.com/8wVnI3H.jpg

[Maillemaker]

Try 34gr now this is by wight

I don't think there is any way that 34 grains of 3F Shuetzen is going to do the job.

If you look at my targets from page 1, you will see that I started at 40 grains and with both 40 and 45 grains I got keyholes. It was not until I bumped up to 50 grains that I got a good group. Looking at the recovered bullets, it does not appear that the base is being blown back on itself as with the other bullet posted.

Another poster posted his chronograph results between equal measures of Goex and Shuetzen and determined that the Shuetzen did not provide as much velocity nor was as consistent. It's clearly a weaker powder.

I've got loads made up for 50, 55, and 60 grains that I will try tomorrow.

Medic says he is shooting 65 grains.

Steve

[j.howardcycles]

HEY STEVE;
FIRST YOU ARE NOT USING SWISS POWDER. SWISS IS THE NAME ON THE CAN. IT IS THE CLEANEST AND STRONGEST POWDER THAT I KNOW OF. YOU ARE USING SHUETZEN. THEY ARE MADE I BELIEVE BY THE SAME COMPANY . ON ANOTHER NOTE WHY ARE YOU USING A 580 MOULD AND SIZING IT DOWN TO 576. YOU SHOULD BE YOU BE USING A 577 MOULD AND IF YOU NEED TO . SIZE IT DOWN TO 576.YOU WILL HAVE MORE GROVE AT THE BASE. ALL I CAN TELL YOU IS WHAT WORKS FOR MY TEAM MATE AND MYSELF. THREE DIFFERENT FIREARMS AND THEY ALL SHOOT THE SAME. TYPE 1 FAYETTEVILLE , 1855 SPRINGFEILD AND A ZOLI J.P. MURRAY. I HOPE THIS HELPS YOU OUT.:cool:

[iron brigade]

Steve,
my experience with schuetzen is the same. I have been shooting KIK 3fffg for 3 years now and really like it. 36 grains behind a 330 grain wadcutter provides plenty of snap and is very accurate in my newly acquired 1841 Mississippi rifle. granted I would probably need more of it to collapse the Wilkinson bullet, say 40-45 grains. the schuetzen is a very good round ball powder and not accurate in any of my guns. others may find their experience is different. try and get ahold of a lb of KIK 3fffg, I think you will be pleasantly surprised. clean burning and easy clean up too.

[j.howardcycles]

Steve;
another thought are you using soft lead ? I mean soft enough you can dig your finger nail into it . These bullets need soft lead to work.

[ms3635v]

The photo I posted is as cast, not sized. The slight straight edge is there as it comes out of the mould. If there is any lube in the compression groove, the bullet will not perform properly. I shoot dead soft lead Wilkinsons.

[Maillemaker]

FIRST YOU ARE NOT USING SWISS POWDER. SWISS IS THE NAME ON THE CAN. IT IS THE CLEANEST AND STRONGEST POWDER THAT I KNOW OF. YOU ARE USING SHUETZEN. THEY ARE MADE I BELIEVE BY THE SAME COMPANY .

I normally shoot Goex. When I called Back Wood Gun shop after the nationals they were out of Goex, so I bought Shuetzen which was similar in price. I did not know there was such a difference in Swiss powder. Of course it is also much more expensive.

Next time I buy powder I guess I'll have to bite the bullet and order it.


ON ANOTHER NOTE WHY ARE YOU USING A 580 MOULD AND SIZING IT DOWN TO 576. YOU SHOULD BE YOU BE USING A 577 MOULD AND IF YOU NEED TO . SIZE IT DOWN TO 576.YOU WILL HAVE MORE GROVE AT THE BASE.

I wanted to use the bullet in a gun that requires a .578 and two others that require .576 bullets. I hoped I would get away with one mold for all three guns.


another thought are you using soft lead ? I mean soft enough you can dig your finger nail into it . These bullets need soft lead to work.

The lead is 99.9% pure virgin lead from Rotometals.com

Steve

[Maillemaker]

OK, so this morning, concerned about lube in the necks, I took all of my lubed bullets and put them base-down in a cookie tin and hit them with my heat gun until all the lube melted off. Of course the lube ring and the base of the neck retained a little lube due to capillary (wicking) action.

Here are the results:

http://imgur.com/a/Yttg4

In the bullets in the trays, the bullets on the right are my double-hand-dipped bullets. The bullets on the left have had the wax melted off of them with the heat gun.

Of course, there is now not much lube on these bullets at all, and I expect them to be difficult to load after 4-5 shots.

I'm now off to the range.

Steve

[ms3635v]

This is how my Wilkinsons look after being sized then dipped. This amount of lube allows the bullet to compress properly and produces great results.


http://www.n-ssa.org/vbforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1857&d=1370639807&thumb=1 (http://www.n-ssa.org/vbforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1857&d=1370639807)

[Maillemaker]

Well, today's shooting was not as impressive a Friday's shooting. It was spitting rain and more humid, maybe that had something to do with it.

I had keyholes with 55 grains in my P53. I did not some encouraging strings using 60 grains 3F Shuetzen. But as predicted, loading was a real bear. After 2 shots I had to jackhammer the ramrod or grab it with both hands and pull hard to get the bullet to go down the barrel.

The bullets seemed to load more easily in my Richmond Carbine and P58. I don't know whether the shorter barrel just made it seem easier or whether something else was going on.

Also, very interestingly, the bullet shot OK in my Pedersoli P58. I had assumed with the 1:48 twist that it would not like the short, light Wilkinson, but I got no keyholes as I did with the RCBS-Hodgdon. Of course, I was shooting it with 60 grains of powder as opposed to the 44 and 46 grains I tried to shoot the RCBS-Hodgdon in it with. It's still shooting way high - I have to put a taller front sight on it.

Here are the targets from today's shooting of the Wilkinson:

http://imgur.com/a/RXEgs

For way of comparison, here is my Richmond Carbine shooting the RCBS-Hodgdon. 10 rounds without cleaning made a single hole in the paper 1.75" across. And they all loaded nicely.

http://i.imgur.com/iuGB9XK.jpg

I think the Wilkinson has promise, but it's limited lube carrying capability means you have to use a premium powder and premium lube. Shuetzen and 2/1 Crisco/Beeswax won't do for this bullet.

Steve

[ms3635v]

Steve,

I think Rich made a valid point about the lube. I am using MCM and it appears, by my shooting experience, to be the right consistency for easy loading. I have not experienced any tightness during loading using MCM. And, as I posted earlier, I am sizing a .577" to .576" and this size works with great results. I have not experienced any keyholes while shooting the Wilkinson. The Whitacre barrel is three years old now and the crown on the muzzle is still nice. I was shooting the RCBS 500M before switching to the Wilkinson. The reasons for the switch were, reduction in bullet weight and reduction in powder charge. The 500M shot very well, but I felt it was time to make a change and the change to the Wilkinson was a good switch for me.

[Maillemaker]

I cannot find MCM online, but I have asked for a brick of SPG for my birthday.

Like I said, I really like the Wilkinson bullet - it's easy to cast, and with a double-cavity mold it's easy to crank them out. I also get very repeatable weights out of the mold once the mold is up to temperature.

But it's clear that because of the limited amount of lube this bullet is able to carry, you have to use a superior lube and a superior powder to make it work. The 2/1 Crisco/Beeswax lube and 3F Shuetzen powder I am currently using don't seem to work well with it.

Also, just FYI, my Whitacre barrel is less than 2 years old.

I'm going to make a special lube tray that will only hold the lube to a maximum height, with the remainder overflowing into a separate basin, so that I can repeatable and easily dip only the base of the bullet into lube, and try this exercise again making sure that the compression groove stays absolutely lube free.

Steve

[ms3635v]

Steve,
You can get it through John Dewalt, Northeast trade Co.

http://northeasttradeco.com/

[Maillemaker]

Yeah, people have directed me there before, but their web site does not list the product. I've sent them an email and am awaiting a response.

Steve

[Rebel Dave]

Steve
Call Northeast trade Co., and ask for John. That's the best way too get hold of him. 1-570-546-2061. MCM is good lube.

Rebel Dave