Thoughts?

[jonk]

1861 Armisport... had her all zeroed in at 50 from the bench, tearing the center out of the target with 40 gr 3F and the Moose 315 with crisco in the base.

Went to a skirmish, and she was shooting between 5 and 8" low. Checked screw tightness- all snug but not overly tight.

I'm a tad nervous about grinding on the front sight unless I am sure that it really is shooting low and that nothing else is amiss. So... what are your thoughts on what would consistantly cause a gun to go low offhand vs. on the bench other than the ape behind the trigger? FWIW, windage remained spot on.

[FirinFlatTop]

Did you try offhand after you benched it? If not that is could be your problem right there.

Bench it, and then offhand to be sure all is right.

[kowdok]

Rick is exactly right, benching from a sitting position will usually put your head at a completely different angle and change your impact point. I always bench these guns from a standing position, I have work boxes on the back of my truck and simply use a sand bag on the back. I'll add that the weather (cloudy or sunny) could change impact pt. by an inch or 2, but not the 5 to 6 ins. you had.

[Maillemaker]

I have always wondered why this would be so.

If my eye makes the same sight picture, lining up the front and rear sights the same way, what difference does standing or sitting make?

Steve

[Rob FreemanWBR]

I'm not throwing stones brother, but if the piece groups well while you're benched and you get different results while standing - I'd say that the problem most likely lies with the trigger puller.

Grouping low indicates consistent jerking/flinching or not following thru. It MAY be attributed to changes in light condition, but not resulting in up to 8 inches of bullet drop at 50 yrds. If your loads, screw setting etc. are all consistent and proven, then BEFORE making any front sight changes, I'd strongly recommend practicing more that particular rifle, esp. if she's new! Get comfortable with the recoil, your stock weld, sight picture, trigger pull, follow thru, etc.

I'll be the first to admit that I blame my beloved Fayetteville on days that I don't do well, but in retrospect it's always "pilot error" that was the problem. If she's sighted in, and from what you wrote it reads that's the case, then rifle is only shooting at what it's aimed at...

Trust me, "I feel your pain"! Hope this is of some help.

[jonk]

Well, the thing is, I had just soldered on a new front sight, that was a wee bit higher than what I had on there already, so it's not surprising; but shooting so well from the bench I figured, 'meh, ok, whatever, good luck for me.' I had not shot it offhand since putting the new sight on. I've got a battery powered dremel tool, I think next time I'm going to go to the range, shoot 2-3 rounds, grind, shoot 2-3 rounds, repeat until I have it where I want it.

[Paul Lampman 263V]

All of the preceding advice is dead on. I would also add that when shooting off of a bench to rest the stock in the same position as you would hold it shooting offhand. Also when you go to the range take a shooter with you if you can to observe your follow through. A low grouping as you described can be indicative of lifting your head off the stock during the shot.

[jonk]

It certainly could be a follow through issue; I'll pay particular attention to that before removing any metal. However, while apples and oranges, in general I'm a pretty decent offhand shooter with high power rifles, and am on our A team carbine team; musket is another story as I've about given up shooting my 2 band euroarms enfield, it just keeps wandering. A very consistant but low grouping with this musket would reinforce I'm doing my part right, the new sight is just high. But follow through and head snapping off the stock is indeed one thing I hadn't considered and will certainly make sure that I'm not messing it up myself on firing.

[iron brigade]

follow through is key. recoil factors in too. in recently shooting my Mississippi rifle, the gun grouped in the same place off hand as well as on the bench. granted the groups were several inches bigger off hand. I can remember one time my wife shooting with me, she wanted to go deer hunting so I let here shoot my 20 ga with slugs. gun was dead on at 50 yards. she shoots... bam! 10 inches low. this went on for a few shots and you guessed it, she was flinching like a son of a gun. anyway hope it gets corrected for you:)

[John Bly]

Most of us do see an impact shift when shooting offhand versus off a rest. 8" seems to be way too much. You could try holding the rifle in your hand and placing your hand on the rest when shooting. This always seemed to work on those lever action rifles with lots of stuff attached the their barrels.

Sighting in offhand may be time consuming but it works. You MUST be able to call your shots. If you cannot do this with any regularity you need to go back to the basics. Trigger time is important but only if you practice it correctly. If you do it wrong your results will be erratic.

[ms3635v]

John's thoughts on off-hand sighting in is very true...it is time consuming. Last year I replaced my Zoli Zouave barrel with a Whitacre barrel. After spending time on the bench getting the sights on spot, I then took a break, then loaded up the cartridge box and started shooting offhand. Although the bench session was pretty much on, I still had to make a couple of very minor adjustments. And, yep, it was a long day at the range.

[S Myers]

Since I'm a person that absolutely hates to practice, if I have a firearm needing to be zeroed in, I break it up into two sessions. The first session is establishing group and approximate point of impact from the bench and the second involves offhand tuning.

I've found in my personal experience it works better for me to break it up because of the difference in muscle memory and face placement on the stock from the bench to offhand take me too long to adjust.

Two more cents,
Sherry Myers

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

I have had this trouble at times, but not so severe. I found I was anticipating the shot. I had someone watch me while I shot and they saw me drop the barrel just before I shot. Take a friend to the range.

[efritz]

The difference in grouping is a result of the recoil. Off the bench recoil in mostly straight back. Offhand it is back and up. If you want to replicate offhand but still a bench, try shooting offhand with the near the muzzle part of the gun resting on a tripod. It won't be still like on a bench but you'll get the offhand recoil. Same goes with revolver. Rest your wrist on a tripod. Not the heal.

Regards

[Jack C., 69th NY]

Has anyone tried standing and using a tripod or other device to support the firearm. Just a thought. In this manner, you would be shooting offhand while the arm is on a rest? It could work? :confused:

[Rob FreemanWBR]

Flinching is a natural reaction, via our nervous system. ALL shooters flinch; however, it's a shooter's ability to mitigate the adverse effects of flinching (via conditioning) while sending a good shot downrange.

There is no other alternative for GOOD practice. Or as my DI used to beat into our heads, "perfect practice, makes perfect performance"!!

Realizing that "perfection" is an ever-elusive goal in our beloved sport, GOOD for the most-part, is "good enough".

As a suggestion, try this, rudimentary but old-school, "technique" my dad used to break/identify flinching with percussion arms. Make a few "dud" caps - soak 'em, whatever, so they won't ignite your charge when fired. Mix these duds with a small batch of live caps and set off practicing on a target of your choice. This works best with an observer, who watches you each time you're aiming in to make your shot. I think you know where this is going... Eventually as you’re shooting, the hammer will fall and the piece fail to discharge. The observer (and hopefully you too) will see if you're guilty of "dropping" your muzzle, jerking, anticipating, flinching, etc... Be SURE to fish out your dud caps from your cap pouch before going to your next skirmish!!

Aside from making you painfully aware of your "jerking" problem, the only remedy as stated above is practice (conditioning). You need to become comfortable with your piece, the load you're using, etc. Each shot fired should come as a surprise to you (constant, gentle squeeze of the trigger). But if you’re shooting a charge which is literally pounding away on your collar bone/shoulder and you’re physically & mentally uncomfortable with the gun’s report, then you need to re-examine your load, projectile, etc.
Follow thru is the next/final step. Keep squeezing the trigger to the rear, even as the report of the shot is heard / felt. Give yourself "half a heartbeat" before lowering your arm - it may not seem like much, but it does take some time for the projectile to travel down the barrel and leave the muzzle. Any movement, thought of movement, etc. will completely ruin each and every well aimed shot.

With time/familiarity you should/need be able to call your shots. If you're unsure where the previously fired round impacted on the target, just from where you were sighted in on your iron sights, you need more trigger time.

The basics of marksmanship - ALL of them followed and executed “perfectly” time and again – can NOT be over emphasized. They’re the foundation; if you're practicing "poorly" your performance will suffer and only go so far. From the basics, you need to then hone your skills with the particular firearm at hand - and that takes time, perseverance and discipline. But once you, “are there", shooting is a VERY enjoyable and rewarding skill/hobby!

My apologies if I’m preaching to the choir, just wanted to share with you (and any others) what has worked for myself and countless others…