Springfield 1861 for Targets/Hunting

[Econwatson]

Hello from the United Kingdom!

I've been doing a good bit of reading about black powder weapons. I'm torn between a Brown Bess India Pattern and the 1861 Springfield Rifle. However, I want a weapon that can actually hit something reliably, so I'm pretty set on an 1861 Springfield. I'll mostly be using it for target shooting and a bit of hunting as well.

I'm looking for a reproduction model, but since I'm not re-enacting I am not hugely concerned about whether the hammer is a slightly different shape or whether the battle is a little bigger at the breach. What I want is an accurate and reliable rifle that has good build quality. With that being the case, am I still looking at the Pedersoli range? I've heard they have exceptional barrels. Or could I sacrifice a bit of authenticity and go for a Euroarms.

I'm not 100% set on an 1861, so I would happily take your advice on different percussion rifles from this time if you think they might be a little more suited to my needs. I just have a real soft spot for the 1861, not sure why. Being British I should probably prefer the Enfield!

Would really appreciate any advice you can give me :)

[Muley Gil]

Welcome to the N-SSA and the BB. Of course, a rifle musket will be more accurate at longer distance than would be a smoothbore, and percussion more reliable than flint. Euroarms is no more, though there are lots of used ones out there and maybe some new old stock as well. Pedersoli should be the best option.

Some folks don't like the straighter Enfield stock and prefer the Springfield. If you can, shoot both and pick the one you like the best.

Good shooting!

[Hickok]

Go with the Enfield!

[dennis g]

Hickok, spend any time at the Purple Fiddle?

[Maillemaker]

I'm looking for a reproduction model, but since I'm not re-enacting I am not hugely concerned about whether the hammer is a slightly different shape or whether the battle is a little bigger at the breach. What I want is an accurate and reliable rifle that has good build quality. With that being the case, am I still looking at the Pedersoli range? I've heard they have exceptional barrels. Or could I sacrifice a bit of authenticity and go for a Euroarms.

I'm not 100% set on an 1861, so I would happily take your advice on different percussion rifles from this time if you think they might be a little more suited to my needs. I just have a real soft spot for the 1861, not sure why. Being British I should probably prefer the Enfield!

Hi Econwatson!

There are only two retail manufacturers of reproduction Civil War-era firearms - Pietta and Pedersoli. Euroarms is no longer in business, having been bought out by Pedersoli.

The going price for new 1861 and 1853 Enfields is around $800.

Many proponents of Springfields say they like them because the stock drop results in a more natural site picture. I've never shot one so I can't comment on that.

The Pedersoli Enfields are aesthetically nice as they have made some recent changes to make them more correctly look like Type III Enfields such as those used during the Civil War.

I am still working up a load for my P58 Pedersoli but I am not finding the accuracy to by exceptional at this point. I get the best accuracy with my guns with custom barrels from Hoyt and Whitacre, but I've had time to work up good loads for them.

If you are looking for a super-accurate gun you might consider buying one from a skirmisher with target proof of accuracy with load information.

Steve

[Eggman]

Econ - I add my welcome on behalf of the NC Iredell Blues. You need to think about joining up with us and then shoot with us twice a year at the national.
I believe you can make any of the rifles mentioned here shoot extremely well with the right load, lube, etc.. What the guys haven't talked about yet is the sights. How are your eyes? The Springfield has the rear sight set up close to the eye which makes aiming difficult if you're over 40. Most Springfield shooters switch over to a peep sight.
The Enfield sight is set much more forward and can be used by most shooters as issued (front sight still must be adjusted for zero). However its awkwardness needs getting used to.
Hoping some of your countrymen see this that can give you a test run on different choices.

[Edwin Flint]

I agree with most everything said so far, but no one has addressed hunting with either. I have hunted with Enfields and Springfields and after along day, they both get heavy and can be awkward due to their length. I now hunt with a Richmond Short Rifle, which is only a bit lighter but about 9 inches shorter. This is essentially a Springfield that was cut down by the Confederacy. Something to think about if your hunting will involve walking with you choice. There are some shorter model Enfields as well for you to consider. With the right bullet and load all will be very accurate.

Great for taking down deer. Destroys squirrels leaving not much to eat. What will you be hunting?

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

When I hunted with a muzzle loader, I shot a 275#, 3yr old buck, 6 point with a Enfield Sargents model. I used 46 grains of 2f with a Lee ashcan bullet. When hunting its always about accuracy, the bullet going where you want it to go consistently, not how fast it goes. Any one of the Civil war rifles will shoot great if you do your part and are willing to try different loads and bullets til you find that perfect one. Do not count out a patched round ball either. Good luck

[iron brigade]

get the pedersoli springfield and don't look back:D

[Econwatson]

Thanks so much for the responses guys. This is such a great resource for individuals like me. I wouldn't have really considered the Enfield if I hadn't gone on here.

Eggman raises an interesting point. My eyesight isn't all that brilliant. I was shooting some pistols on the weekend, and I was finding it quite difficult to focus well on the sights. I usually use a scope so ironsights might be something I need to practice with. But given that my eyesight isn't fantastic, would it be an idea to consider the Enfield? Are there any resources where I could view the sight-pictures of both rifles?

Is there a consensus on which rifle, the 1861 or Enfield is more accurate, or are they fairly comparable. I'd love to be able to shoot either of them, but I don't know anyone with a muzzleloader, let alone an 1861 Springfield or Enfield. Just going to have to go with your guys' advice!

Thanks once again.

EDIT: I've been doing a bit of reading on the 33' barrel Enfield, particularly that it was issued to Confederate sharpshooters. This is something that appeals to me immensely. Why would this rifle be more accurate than the regular P53 Enfield? Is it more to do with the twists in the rifling? I noticed on the Pedersoli sight they have a P53 with a 33' barrel, designated the Navy model. Would this have been the type issued to sharpshooters on the Confederate side?

Sorry to keep changing my mind on you guys, it's just a big investment and I'd like to make the right decision.

[Mike McDaniel]

Accuracy will depend on the individual rifle and load. As a general rule, the rifles (2-band) are more accurate and better balanced than the rifle-muskets (3-band).

[Mike Stein]

Comparing what the Confederate sharp shooters had available to what available today is apples and oranges. The one they were shooting back in the day was progressive depth rifling. Today's out of the box is not. There are folks that will reline your barrel with like rifling and this will add to the expense of your musket purchase. A late model Italian made Springfield or Enfield do not have progressive depth or gain twist or other details per particular model. Bobby Hoyt will reline to almost any flavor you want as well as guide you in what might best fit your intended purpose.

[Econwatson]

Thanks so much for the responses guys. I'm so glad I posted on this forum. I wouldn't have even thought about going for an Enfield before but now they're looking more and more appealing.

The 2 band P58 model looks great, and less cumbersome for the purpose of hunting.

I just watched the movie Gettysburg for the first time, and I've got to admit I was sort of rooting for the confederates which I suppose made me want an Enfield a little more! I'll bet there's a lot of N-SSA running around in that movie!

Going to have to look into the appropriate certificate I need to own one of these however. I was under the impression I'd only need a shotgun certificate, but since it's rifled I may well need a firearms certificate which is a little harder to come by.

[Maillemaker]

Where do you live?

Around these parts (Alabama) black powder arms don't require any kind of paperwork whatsoever.

Steve

[Southron Sr.]

In 1862 the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia ran an exhaustive series of tests on all of the various arms issued by the ANV. The absolute winner in the "accuracy department" was the British made, Enfield Naval Rifle with the 33 inch barrel WHEN SHOT WITH BRITISH MADE AMMUNITION.

The test proved that most rifles and rifle-muskets shot with about the same accuracy out to around 500 Yards but the Naval Rifles were accurate out to 900 or so yards! This was the issue "Weapon of choice" for Confederate Sharpshooters in the ANV.

This was "nothing new" to you Brits because in the late 1850's and early 1860's at the rifle matches sponsored by the British NRA, and competitor that showed up at a rifle match and shot a Naval Rifle automatically had 10% DEDUCTED from his final score because the Naval Rifle was acknowledged to be much more accurate than the regular issue, P-53 Enfield with the 39 inch barrel!

One of the reasons the Naval Rifle had such phenomenal accuracy was that it had the "Magic" 1 in 48" Twist. The two replica Naval Rifles that have the "Magic" 1 in 48" Twist is the replica Parker-Hale Naval Rifle (now out of production) and the new Pedersoli Naval Rifle.

Anyway, Henry Crank in England has the Pedersoli Naval Rifles in stock:

www.henrykrank.com

For BEST accuracy you will need to shoot a Minie Ball sized to be NO MORE than .002" under the bore diameter and with a "moderate" charge of black powder, say somewhere between 40 and 65 grains of powder. Always cast your Minie Balls out of pure, soft lead and make sure they are well lubed.

I also suggest you join the Muzzle Loading Association of Great Britain

Membership Manager:

Louis Ward

membership@mlagb.com

GOOD LUCK!!!

[Econwatson]

Thanks so much for the detailed response Southron. Are you from the UK yourself?

I'm a little confused about the regulations for owning a rifled musket in the UK. I initially thought I would only need a shotgun certificate, but upon further reading I am pretty sure I will need a firearms certificate which are more difficult to get a hold of. Southron if you are from the UK, do you have any more details on this? I know for a smoothbore musket like a Brown Bess I only need a shotgun certificate but I believe the rules are different for rifled muskets. I have not been able to find anything concrete on this yet though.

You guys are really selling the P58 to me. I've been checking it out on Youtube, Hickock45 has some great close ups of the weapon and it looks gorgeous.

[medic302]

www.lrml.org (http://www.lrml.org) they can help you out with the UK laws.

[Southron Sr.]

Dear Econwatson

I don't live in the U.K. and it has been a while since any of my relatives lived there.

I live here in Georgia, U.S.A. My Father's side of the family (G-G-G-G-G-G-Great Grandpa) emigrated from the Essex Coast of England in 1635 to Virginia. He left in a hurry because there was a "misunderstanding" about a horse he had "borrowed."

My Mom's side of the family (G-G-G-G-Grand Grandpa) left County Cork, Ireland in 1774, also in a hurry, because of a similar misunderstanding about a horse. That ancestor landed in Philadelphia and then made his way down to North Carolina. So, I like to think I come from a long line of horse fanciers.

Here in the U.S. any original firearm (or a replica thereof) made previous to 1898 is not even considered a "firearm" under federal law. Anti-Gun Laws are basically Anti-Freedom Laws. Here in the states the widespread ownership of firearms actually keeps the crime rates down.

Regarding getting your license to own a black powder firearm-that is why I suggested you join the Muzzle Loading Association of Great Britain. Go to their website and join. They can answer any and all questions you have about getting your license.

www.mlagb.com

GOOD LUCK

[Econwatson]

Thanks very much for the advice, and the history! I've only traced my family back to the 1790s, and in all that time we've moved about 5 miles from our current location (Family of farmers). Your history sounds very much more exciting!

I have applied for forum membership with the MLAGB but they have yet to grant approval. I did have a search of the forum but to no avail. It's a real pain with all the certificates, but I suppose it's all for the better. Though I haven't seen anyone holding up a bank with a brace of flintlock pistols in the news recently. :P

EDIT: Out of interest, is there a link to the report from the 1862 Confederate weapon tests? I'd love to read them!

[Muley Gil]

"So, I like to think I come from a long line of horse fanciers."

As far as I've been able to research, no such "fanciers" have turned up in my family tree. However, there must be SOME reason I've never been comfortable wearing a necktie. :D