Approved calibers for Joslyn conversion

[Mike w/ 34th]

Are there any approved calibers for shooting the Joslyn Carbine in the Single Shot competition? The original caliber was .52 Spencer, so would .56-50 be an approved centerfire substitute?

Post-war conversions of the Joslyn were to .50-70 (not a round I'd choose to skirmish with!) and various shotgun calibers.

I have a centerfire breech, I'm just trying to decide what caliber to have it barreled in.

Thanks,

Mike

[Jim Brady Knap's Battery]

Mike I have to ask where did the centerfire breech come from? I have often thought a Josyln would be an interesting piece to play with.

Jim Brady
2249V
Knap's Battery

[Mike w/ 34th]

Jim,

I got it off of Gunbroker. It's currently attached to a 12 gauge shotgun barrel with Liege proofs.

According to the Springfield Armory web site, 1600 .56-50 RF Joslyn rifles were converted to .50-70 CF at Springfield, later sold to the French, captured by the Germans, and finally converted to shotguns by the Belgians to be sold to the Africans.

So in theory, there should be over a thousand centerfire conversions done by Springfield Armory floating around.

I'm looking forward to shooting this gun. If I can't get it converted to a skirmishing caliber, I might turn it into a black powder Trap shotgun.

Mike

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Mike,

I was under the impression that the M1864 Joslyn Carbine was chambered for its own cartridge, the .50-60-450 RF cartridge sometimes referred to as "U.S. 50 Cal Carbine", kind of a short version of the .50-70 rifle cartridge. Though .50-60 Carbine was similar to .56-50 Spencer RF (technically a .50-45) and would fit the chamber though short and function with relative safety, the .56-50 Spencer was a shorter and less powerful cartridge so did not perform as well as the .50-60 cartridge designed for the Joslyn.

[Richard Hill]

Civil War Joslyns were in 56-56 Spencer. Don't know about post war.

[Mike w/ 34th]

Richard and Richard,

Thanks for the replies. This is good info.

I was going by Flayderman's and information from John Walter's books. Flayderman states that the Joslyn carbine was "chambered for the same .52 Spencer round as that carbine (the Spencer)". From John Walter:


The Model 1861 was chambered for the Spencer .56-56 rimfire cartridge, and the improved Model 1862 used the Spencer .56-52 rimfire cartridge. The barrels were not designed to accept a bayonet.

The Model 1864 featured many small improvements and refinements to the Model 1862 design, and could fire either the Spencer .56-52 cartridge or a .54 caliber cartridge made by Joslyn.



I know .50-60 cartridges were available--Peabody sold several hundred of his rifles in .50-60 to Canada--but I didn't think it saw a lot of use in the US.

The gun I have is a Model 1864 carbine. The reports on the Joslyn were poor because of problems with gas seal, case tolerances, and because the officers reporting wanted Spencers instead. :) The Model 1864 Joslyn addressed the gas seal problem by adding a latch to the breech and a vent hole. I guess if you can't fix it, roll with it.

[R. McAuley 3014V]

The source I was citing from was U.S. CIVIL WAR CARBINES by James B. Whisker, Larry W. Yantz, and Daniel D. Hartzler. But Flayderman also states with regards to the Joslyn BL Rifle made by Springfield Armory circa Jan-Jun 1865 "Although commonly listed as 56-50 rimfire and that Spencer cartridges fits, the correct cartridge is the 50-60-450 Joslyn rimfire made at the Frankford Arsenal." I seem to recall that the length of this case was 1.337-inches whereas the 56-50 case was typically 1.15-inches long.

http://ww2.rediscov.com/spring/VFPCGI.exe?IDCFile=/spring/DETAILS.IDC,SPECIFIC=11149,DATABASE=objects

A gentleman at a local gun show had five or six of the 50-60-450 Joslyn cartridges that he had marked as .56-50 Spencer which caught my eye, and as I told him, I'd like to see the Spencer rifle that shot those long 50-60 cartridges! This cartridge is to be distinguished from the .50-45-400 cartridge for the 1867 Navy Cadet rifle by Remington; the .50-55-450 for the Springfield "Cadet" rifle; and also from the .50-55-430 of 1872 which used the .50-70 (1 3/4") case but with a 55-grain powder charge. The last was used in the Model 1870Springfield, Remington, and Sharps Carbines, theModel 1871 Ward-Burton carbine, as well as inthe Models 1867 (aka 1866) and 1869 Cadet rifles.

[Mike w/ 34th]

Thanks for the clarification!

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

Mike, Before making up a carbine out of those shotgun parts you need to check out that breech. They are differences between the carbine and rifle. The rifles have a stronger setup. It maybe hard for you to tell which is which without them being side by side. I own a centerfire rifle and can verify a 50-70 will not fit. It is really all about the length of the bullet in combination with the length of the case that you choose to use. All of the Spencer cases are basically alike except for length, so it is the combination with the bullet and how much it stands out of the case is the issue.
Check it out.

[Mike w/ 34th]

Hi Bruce,

Bill Adams recommended that I talk to you about this project...glad you found my post. I think the shotgun is a carbine action, but as you point out, I haven't actually put it side by side with the complete carbine I have. I'll do that this weekend. I wouldn't be opposed to building a rifle in .50-60, except for the scant likelihood of ever finding correct parts.

There's a lot of conflicting info about caliber in the 1864 carbine. Some sources say .56-52 Spencer, but other sources say that cartridge wasn't even introduced until 1866.

The carbine I have has a bore size somewhere in the .535 neighborhood. A .538 minie can be forced through the muzzle with thumb pressure, so I'm thinking this would have to be .56-56, right? I plan to do a chamber cast this weekend, as well.

-Mike

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

Hi, I will check both my rimfire and centerfire model rifles and let you know the bore sizes.

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

I just pushed 2 bullets through each of my rifles, one rimfire, one centerfire. The rifling ( 3 groove ) in both are the same. Both bullets measure .509 max dia. This being said, the bullet that should be used in these is anywhere from .518 to .520. figuring depth of groove to be close to .010. This is also what I found in a converted carbine that I sold to my friend John who shoots it in the single shot matches using smith bullets. So you can call it a .52 or .50 depending on your interpretation of bore size. This is definitive proof, not conjecture. ..... The N-SSA is great, where else are you going to have someone go to there closet and check info out, not just tell you they read it in a book. Amazing.

[Richard Hill]

You are talking about just the rifle, right?

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

Yes and no. The bore size of the rimfire / converted carbine bullet I had is the same bullet as i'm going to use in my rifle. The bullet I used in the carbine is the .50 cal. R.E.A.L. It is big at the top and smaller at the bottom. The carbine bore is bigger. The bullet John is using in the carbine now is a hollow base .54 muzzle loading bullet sized to .533, then reduced down a little at the base enough to be put into the case. The bore / rifling will not be the cartridge 56-56 size as that size groove to groove is .554 / .557. These bore measurements were off a big frame Ballard. So depending on your speak, the carbine is a .52 or a .54. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

[R. C. Hubbard Jr]

Bruce,
Are you sure that the rifle is not a post war change which were true .50 cal's.?

RCHJR.

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

Bob, I have acquired 2 rifles, one rim, one centerfire, both have identical bores.

[Mike w/ 34th]

Thanks for the info, Bruce!

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

Hi Bruce,

Bill Adams recommended that I talk to you about this project...glad you found my post. I think the shotgun is a carbine action, but as you point out, I haven't actually put it side by side with the complete carbine I have. I'll do that this weekend. I wouldn't be opposed to building a rifle in .50-60, except for the scant likelihood of ever finding correct parts.

There's a lot of conflicting info about caliber in the 1864 carbine. Some sources say .56-52 Spencer, but other sources say that cartridge wasn't even introduced until 1866.

The carbine I have has a bore size somewhere in the .535 neighborhood. A .538 minie can be forced through the muzzle with thumb pressure, so I'm thinking this would have to be .56-56, right? I plan to do a chamber cast this weekend, as well.

-Mike Mike, Hope you are still at home. I just refound a couple of repop carbine stocks. They look real nice. I'll bring them for you to see at the Nationals at Yecks