.58 Caliber Wilkinson Bullet

[ms3635v]

I bought a .577 diameter Wilkinson bullet mould from Moose Moulds at the Spring Nationals. I cast about 400 the other day and then sized them to .576" for use in my Zoli Zouave that is fitted with a Whitacre .577 barrel. After sizing the bullet fit was snug, but still loaded easily. I made up charges in 40 grains of 3f and 43 grains of 3f and went off to the range today. Attached is the target that was shot with 40 grains of GOEX 3f. I was very impressed with the accuracy of the Wilkinson bullet in my Zouave. 1851

[ian45662]

Intersting. Is the wilk. any harder to cast or prepare than a minie or hollow base bullet?

[ms3635v]

Ian, I have a two cavity mould. When it is the right temperature, it casts bullets very quickly. As for prep, I run them through a Northeast Trade sizing die in my reloading press, then just dip lube the bottom band...be sure not to get any lube in the cavity between the base and the nose or the base will not collapse properly. The whole process of casting, sizing and lubing goes quickly and smoothly. I size the .577" to .576" and the bullet to bore fit is just right. I'm sold on these bullets.

[moosette]

Mike - VERY nice target!!! I think another medal is waiting for you.....

Moosette

[Maillemaker]

What range was this shot at, and was it off a bench or off hand?

Steve

[ms3635v]

Steve, this was at 50 yards from the bench as it was the first time using the bullet. At 100 yards from the bench, it will hold 5 shots in the black from the bench with the same hold as the minie I was using, but I think it will do better. I will going back to the range to work on the 100 yard tests, then I will shoot off-hand and get use to the new bullet/powder combination.

[Maillemaker]

That's great info. This is shooting much better than my RCBS Hodgdon does in my guns with Whitacre and Hoyt barrels.

Steve

[ms3635v]

Steve, my son-in-law and I were both using the Hodgdon bullet with moderate success after trying different powder charges but we discovered other bullets that produced better results. Before the Wilkinson, I was using the RCBS 500M. This bullet worked well but weighed in at 525 grains and required 45 grains of 3F to get the best results. Needless to say, the Wilkinson at 420 grains with 40 grains of 3F is much more pleasant to shoot and is extremely accurate. We will soon be getting a Wilkinson in .580" for my son-in-law's musket, which will replace an old style minie that he is using.

[Maillemaker]

I tried the 500M but did not get good results with it. I assumed these bullets were too long for the 1:72 twist rate.

Steve

[Lou Lou Lou]

The 500M is one of the more stable bullets. Yes it is heavy and uses lots of lead. But if you feed it soft lead it is capable of very fine work. A larger base plug can be made reducing it to 470 grains and still retain excellent accuracy.Good luckLou

[MR. GADGET]

I have been using the 500 M RCBs with some OK groups, I'm sure it is the shooter.

But for several years I have been thinking about trying something different.
Have the RCBS Hodgen bullet and tried that with no luck plus it was real hard to cast and keep it filled out.

This post has me thinking I may want to try one of these molds and give it a try.

So the question is, what are or were they designed for.

I have some cut down springfields into two banders and a Richmond carbine.
Also shoot some Zouave's, all are stock factory barrels and Made by Euro Arms.

I did not know if they would work in that or if they needs a deep cut rifling like the hoyt....

Any thoughts on factory barrels, and if anyone tried any in carbine?

[Maillemaker]

Well, I guess I'll have to give them a go again. I played around with the 500M for almost a year while waiting for my RCBS Hodgdon for Christmas. I shot it in my Whitacre Enfield and my Hoyt Richmond Carbine. I don't remember now but I don't think I was able to do better than about an 8" group at 100 yards, off a bench.

When you look at that Greenhill's equation for a 1:72 twist, that bullet by the math is too long. I assumed that was the problem.

Steve

[ms3635v]

Hey Jon. My first experience with a Wilkinson was in my Euroarms Mississippi rifle. I use a .542" diameter Wilkinson because my bore mic's out at .543" which is bigger than most Mississippi's I have encountered. I use 40 grains of 3F GOEX in that rifle as well and the combination of the bullet and the powder charge produced the same tight groups as did the .576" in my Whitacre barreled Zouave. The Mississippi has multi-groove rifling and the Whitacre barrel is 3 lands and grooves, 1:72 twist. I will be testing the .577" in a three band musket (3 lands and grooves, 1:72 twist) soon and will post the results. So far, the bullet seems to perform well with 40 grains of 3F. And of course, fit is important. I wouldn't size them smaller than .001" under bore size. In another post a member reported getting good results with 38 grains of 3F...I haven't tried that charge yet, but then again, you never know.

[MR. GADGET]

Thanks, great info....

How much can you size them down?

I have some Euro arms that I shoot, some I size to 576 577 pending the mold and bullet, and they are very tight, others are 575.

Will one 577 or 578 fit my needs and work just size them down?
Or will I need a 576 and 578 to true and or size down 001 to fit?

[ms3635v]

Jon, right now Moose only makes the Wilkinson in .580" and .577". From the comments of others using these moulds, the recommendation is not to size down more than .002". When I size to .001" you can barely see the sizer marks on the bullet. When I seat the bullet in the muzzle of my .577" Whitacre barrel I can feel a very slight contact with the bore. The bullet fits the bore nicely and as you have seen is very accurate. I ran a .577" through a .574" sizing die and mic'd it to be sure it was .574". After checking the bullet, it appears that taking it down .003" did not damage the bullet. I hope this helps. Also, I forgot to mention, I still clean my rifle after about 20 shots with wet and dry patches and have not seen any appreciable fouling issues...no different than shooting minies.

[MR. GADGET]

Great I will get a 577 MM on order and give it a try.

That should work for both, I can true it in a 577 die or go down one if needed then also hit 575 for my carbine.

[ms3635v]

Just a follow-up on this thread. I have attached a photo of how I lube my Wilkinsons for the best results. 1857

[ms3635v]

Here is a link to an article written by Greg Edington on the Wilkinson bullet. http://www.civilwarguns.com/board/viewtopic.php?id=1&t_id=5

[William Schoenfeld, 1386]

I have the new Pedersoli 2 band Enfield and I am using Ray Rapines old style Minnie and it weighs in at 496. I am using a charge of 41 grains of 3 F Goex and I after reading this thread and others I was wondering how this Wilkinson would do in the 2 band Enfield. I resize mine at 577 and they are a very nice fit - which size mold would I need - .577 or the .580?

[ms3635v]

Dutch, I size my .577" to .576" for my Whitacre barreled Zouave. When I load the bullet, you can feel slight resistance, but it loads nicely. With my Euroarms Mississippi, Moose made a .542" Wilkinson as the bore is .543". I load this one as cast with no sizing. The bullet fits the same as the .577" sized down, and it produces the same accuracy in the Mississippi as does the one for my Zouave. Also, I randomly mic'd both the .577" and the .542" and they all cast dead on using soft lead. When weighed on a digital scale, both calibers weigh in at +/- 1 grain. These moulds produce some of the most consistent bullets from cast to cast.

[William Schoenfeld, 1386]

Mike it sounds as if this type of bullet will work in most guns. Since the Naval Enfield is 1:48 twist I was just wondering what it would do in that barrel. I have tried the international bullet and it will not work in my Enfield. So any information I can get before purchase would be extremely helpful.

[ms3635v]

Dutch, I am sending you a PM.

[Jim Mulligan 7288V]

I had the opportunity to cast and shoot this bullet yesterday. Casting the bullet is highly efficient with the two cavity mould and it shoots very well. A long time shooter and marksman advised the way to better shooting is "trigger time". This mould will increase a shooters ability for additional trigger time instead of casting time. Good job Moose Moulds!

[Jim Barber]

Just shot the Wilkinson up at Defiance this weekend, sized to .576, barrel is .577. I had concerns it would be tough to load after several shots, but it's no different than the .575 wadcutter I normally shoot. I think because it has less bearing surface on the bore, it can be pretty tight and still slide down without much resistance. They shot great at 50 yds using 40gr Goex 3f in my 1861 Springfield 2 bander. I'm not a pillar of shooting skill (yet!) but I managed a 42 on individuals; I had one flyer that I flinched on and knew it. Cussed up a storm. Funny thing though, took my first shot at the sighter and clipped the X ring, then when I was done with the score target I shot a final farewell at the sighter, got it in the 10. I still have to dial it in at 100 yds. I'd shot it before at 100, and thought I knew where the impact was (low by about 6 inches) and tried it on the 100 yd tiles, aiming at 12 o'clock so the tip of the tile was covered. Not so good. But then, it could just be me. As soon as I get a chance I'll bench it at the range to put my moronic antics out of the equation and report back.
Cheers!
Jim B.
Grove City, OH

[ms3635v]

Jim, I still have to spend time shooting at 100 yards before I realize the true potential of this bullet. The bullet is great, I just have to get better!

[Jim Barber]

Mike,

One of the things that got me interested in trying the Wilkinson is its inherent stability advantage over the wadcutter and the standard Minie. At least, according to the esteemed, late Henry Wilkinson. I read his very small book (large pamphlet?) "Muskets, Rifles and Projectiles" and he laid out in great detail tests made comparing various projectiles, including trajectory, velocity and accuracy at long distances. The most striking thing I've read is the Wilkinson's speed compared to that of a standard Minie at 100 yards.
Anyway, we shall see! Nothing like a little Armchair Accurizing!

Please keep us posted when you've had more time at 100 yds.

Best
Jim B.

[Jim Mulligan 7288V]

Following up to see if anyone had the opportunity to continue testing this bullet and their opinion.

[pastore]

then just dip lube the bottom band...be sure not to get any lube in the cavity between the base and the nose or the base will not collapse properly. The whole process of casting, sizing and lubing goes quickly and smoothly. I size the .577" to .576" and the bullet to bore fit is just right. I'm sold on these bullets.

Have you tried any sustained fire with these bullets? It would seem that with the small amount of lube on the bullets, that fouling may become a problem fairly quickly.

[Jim Mulligan 7288V]

Fletcher, I did lube tests and found dipping the bullet base twice in SPG worked quite good.Jim

[ms3635v]

Fletcher, I have done sustained shooting at my range and have had no problem with fouling. I clean after 40 rounds. I use MCM, once dipped, and works just fine in both my Zouave and my .54 caliber Mississippi.

[medic302]

I shoot the .577 Wilkinson from my P53 pedersoli enfield. I have shot this bullet from 25yrds to 300yrds, using 65grns swiss 3F. the bullet chronographs around 1280fps, 4" groups at 100yrds, 8" at 200yrds and at 300yrds keeping them in the black is no problem until the wind starts blowing. I wipe every 10 shots and loading is never a problem. I single dip the base with 80/20 mix of tallow/beeswax. great bullet.

[Maillemaker]

I just ordered a .580 double-cavity mold. I'm going to try it in my P53, Richmond Carbine, and P58.

Steve

[R. McAuley 3014V]

When you look at that Greenhill's equation for a 1:72 twist, that bullet by the math is too long. I assumed that was the problem.
Steve

Steve, it's not the maths. It's the general assumption about Greehill's equation! You see, Dr. Greenhill taught at the Artillery School, not the Rifle School, and his equation was intended for describing the behaviour of artillery projectiles not small-arm projectiles, and the equation that is most often cited was instead intended for a lead-tin alloy and solid-steel projectiles, not pure lead bullets. You may as well use Whitworth's theorems on the ratio of diameters to lengths of bullets if you must; you would probably come closer to finding what works than trying to divine it using Dr. Greenhill's artillery equations. Good luck either way.

[Maillemaker]

Here is some new work that has been done to improve on Greenhill's formulas:

http://www.jbmballistics.com/ballistics/bibliography/articles/miller_stability_1.pdf

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi

Steve

[rkaires]

Hi,

I'm curious on any updates using this bullet in a .577 1/48 twist PH P58 barrel.


Regards,
Bob

[ms3635v]

No results for the Enfield so far. I would be interested to know how they do in the Enfield. I use a Wilkinson in my .54 caliber Euroarms Mississippi that has a 1 in 66 twist multi-groove factory barrel. I shoot 40 grains of 3F in both my Zouave and the Mississippi and both rifles produce excellent groups. I have not experienced any issues with these bullets at 100 yards on windy days. At the Middle Atlantic Region Commander's Shoot in November, I won a second place 100 yard musket medal, and the wind was kicking that weekend.

[rkaires]

Hi Mike,

Thank you for your reply. Congrats on your metal. I'd like to see how they are working in 1/48 twist barrels before buying a mould.

Regards,
Bob

[Maillemaker]

I have not yet found a satisfactory load for the Wilkinson in my Pedersoli P58.

I received some of the vaunted SPG lube for Christmas so I will try with that as soon as we get some decent weather. Supposed to be in the 50's this weekend so maybe I will try it out then.

Steve

[rkaires]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the update with your P58. If you can please post your results when you try them with SPG.

Regards,
Bob

[Gary Van Kauwenbergh, 101]

I've been using Wilkinson bullets in my .54 Lorenzes for years, and it's a very accurate bullet. I have not had problems in the wind. One thing you do have to watch out for is putting too much lube in the grooves. Those aren't grease grooves. The bullet needs that space to scrunch down and expand when the charge ignites. If you have that space filled with lube, it doesn't expand correctly. I fill that groove about a third of the way with lube, and leave the rest empty.

[rkaires]

Hey Gary,

Thanks for the heads up on not filling the groove with too much lube.

Regards,
Bob

[Gary Van Kauwenbergh, 101]

The only person I knew who couldn't make that bullet shoot was filling that groove up with lube. It does need that room to compress. As far as the questions about whether it's easier to cast: I have a six-cavity mold for my .54 from Greg Edingtion. With no base pin to worry about, casting is simpler and quicker. I return very few to the pot. The only problem I have is keeping my 20 lb. pot full because I'm using about a pound of lead every time or two I cast.

[ms3635v]

Bob,

This is how my Wilkinsons look after lubing ( I size then dip).

2353

[rkaires]

Looks good Mike. I guess just a little above the base band does the trick. I could probably pan lube them like my .32 & .40 cal schuetzen bullets. I'd imagine that they cast as easy as any other flat based bullet.

Regards,
Bob

[ms3635v]

Bob,

I have a two cavity Moose Mould and I cast a lot in a short amount of time, with maybe, and that's a big maybe, 1 or 2 throwbacks in the beginning of the casting session. I also tried several different lubes and found that MCM (Northeast Trade) lube worked the best for me.

[rkaires]

Mike,

That sounds good. I like being able to cast a large quantity in short order. Do you use a bottom pour pot or ladle pour?

Regards,
Bob

[Maillemaker]

I cast up 90 of them last night and dipped their tails in SPG. I'll see how the weather is supposed to be today.

Steve

[CAGerringer]

For those that have gotten good results from the Wilkinson, do you leave the lube on the base of the bullet, or wipe it off?

Charlie Gerringer
Old Dominion Dragoons

[Gary Van Kauwenbergh, 101]

I do not lube my bases on any musket bullets, Wilkinson or skirted. I know lot's of guys do, but I've picked up plenty of spent bullets downrange that have un-melted lube with un-burned powder mashed into it. If you do it and it works for you, that's great.

The trick on a Wilkinson bullet is to get enough, but not too much in that groove. If the fowling is getting crusty as you go towards the muzzle, you need more, but if your groups aren't what they should be, try less.

[Maillemaker]

I made it to the range today. It's an a 1:10 drive to get to Skyline. Glad that duck season is over so I can go back to Swan Creek.

Anyway nothing to write home about accuracy wise. I shot charges from 30 to 55 grains in 5 grain jumps. .580 Moose Wilkinson bullets sized to .578, which is the maximum size that the Pedersoli P58 will accept. .579 will not load. Tails of the bullets were dipped in SPG lube and then set on wax paper to cool.

Wind was light to moderate. Temperature was 58 degrees when I started shooting and 51 when I quit at sundown. It was partly sunny. I started shooting 15 bullets with each course of fire but as I was running out of daylight I switched to only 10 shots. Loading went well for the first 10 shots or so and then got a little crunchy. Fouling seemed worse towards the muzzle.

I melted the SPG lube in a cap tin on a hot plate. Depending on the amount of lube in the tin the lube would sometimes wick up into the neck of the bullet. I let it drain off as best it could but did not make any effort to scrape out what remained. Here is what the bullets looked like:

http://i.imgur.com/n3AgezG.jpg

I was using 2F Goex.

Here is the target setup at 50 yards:
http://i.imgur.com/8ZiU334.jpg

Here are the targets:
http://imgur.com/a/iQorR

It looks like between 40 and 45 grains of 2F Goex gave the best groupings, but they are not very impressive for 50 yards off a bench. My P53 with Whitacre barrel and Richmond Carbine with Hoyt barrel will blow a single ragged hole about 2.5" in diameter at this range from a bench.

Steve

[rkaires]

Steve,

Thanks for the the update with your P58. Your P53 is a 1-72 twist. What is the twist on your Hoyt barreled Richmond carbine? I'm wondering if a 1/48 twist may be too fast for the Moose Wilkinson.

Regards,
Bob

[ms3635v]

Charlie,

I leave the lube on the bottom of the base. I have had no issues with the bottom being lubed. I have not experienced any problems with fouling that causes a drop in accuracy with the combination I am currently using. I use the same combination in my .54 caliber Mississippi with the same excellent results. I use 40 grains of 3F GOEX and it produces great results. When I got my first Parker Hale P58 in the mid 70's I tried 2F, but soon switched to 3F because it burns faster, uses less powder and burns much cleaner. I have been using 3F ever since.

[Maillemaker]

I would prefer to use 3F but the last time I ordered powder from Back Creed all they had for 3F was Shuetzen. It's useless with the Wilkinson. It is so dirty you can only load about 2-3 rounds before the barrel is so crunchy you have to jackhammer the round down.

So I went back to my dwindling supply of 2F Goex.

I'll never buy Shuetzen again.

Steve

[Maillemaker]

Thanks for the the update with your P58. Your P53 is a 1-72 twist. What is the twist on your Hoyt barreled Richmond carbine? I'm wondering if a 1/48 twist may be too fast for the Moose Wilkinson.

I'm going to re-visit this experiment with my P53 later.

Steve

[Maillemaker]

Well, after having snow and sub-freezing temperatures on Tuesday, it was in the 60's today.

I made up another batch of .580 Wilkinsons, sized to .576 for my Richmond Carbine. It has a Hoyt barrel. With my usual target load, an RCBS Hodgdon bullet over 44 grains of powder, it is capable of blowing a single ragged hole in the paper at 50 yards. I first shot a reference target using that bullet. I had 3 fliers, I guess I was just warming up. 7 in the black and 5 touching at 50 yards.

I dipped the tails of the Wilkinsons in SPG lube. Bullets were weight before sizing to +/- .05% of average. I made up sets of 10 using 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, and 60 grains of 2F Goex. Loading was pretty consistent through all 10 shots. Not as trouble free as the Hodgdon bullets but loadable nonetheless.

Here are the targets, all shot from a bench rest:
http://imgur.com/a/NgIb3

35 grains did not produce a terrible group.

But 50 and 55 grains made a very nice group. At 50 grains 7 of 10 shots tore a ragged hole. At 55 grains 4 or possibly 5 shots were touching. I'm missing one shot on the 55 grain target. There was one hole with a substantially darker perimeter - maybe 2 shots in one hole? Or it may have gone into the main group hole. Not sure. Pretty sure I did not miss the target.

At 60 grains things start to open up again.

So it seems to me that this larger Wilkinson takes quite a blast to get optimal compression for good groups. I want to try another run with my Enfield.

I love casting this bullet in the 2-cavity mold and really would like to use it for skirmishing as it is much faster and easier to cast. I get virtually no rejects when casting with it.

Steve

[Hickok]

Ah, the sweet smell of success, brimstone and bullet lube!!!

Steve I got a new 54 Sharps ringtail mold from Moose Molds for Christmas, and it is a real piece of work! Moose Molds does a great job!

[ms3635v]

Since this thread was started, I finished building a 2 band Springfield with an 1861 barrel from Dan Whitacre. The bore size is .577". This rifle shoots the same combination of Wilkinson bullet and 40 grains of 3F GOEX as I was using in my Zouave. Three weeks ago I went to the range to practice for the Nationals and shot this target, offhand, at 100 yards.


2757

[Jim Mulligan 7288V]

Nice target, Mike!

[ian45662]

what rate of twist are you guys shooting these out of? I have 2 58 cal hoyt barrels both 3 groove 1:60. A fello gave me some to try out and so here in the coming weeks I will try them and if I like them I will buy a mold.

[ms3635v]

1 in 72", 3 lands and grooves. A teammate, before the Nationals benched his Colt 2 band with a Hoyt multi-groove barrel and shot the following 50 yard target. Also shot with a .577" sized to .576" with 40 grains of GOEX 3F and MCM lube.

2763

[Rich Foster]

Hey Mike could of you photo crop those 2 eights out of the picture? Or did you just shoot those to show that your not perfect. With what Mike is showing it will shoot very well with 1-72 twist. The wilkinson bullet was design for a Lorenze 4 land 4 groove barrel. It shoots just as well out of my 1-48 twist 4 land and groove jeager short rifle. with just 2 more grains of powder and only real good with 3f goex. You need instant gas seal and using a slower burning powder it might not do as well. Rich

[tackdriver]

Ok, I might give this mould a shot....:cool::cool: Just wanted to double check to see anybodys results by using this Wilkinson bullet in an 1853 Enfield with a Hoyt barrel.??. Also, does anyone encounter any problems by using a two bullet mould over a one bullet mould? I've never tried a two bullet mould before thx

[ms3635v]

Good morning tackdriver,

What is the twist rate on your Enfield? If it's one of Bob Hoyt's 1 in 56 the Wilkinson should work well. A team member shoots the Wilkinson in his Hoyt barreled Colt 2 bander and it shoots very well. It seems, from people I talk to who are using the Wilkinson are getting excellent results with between 38 and 42 grains of 3F with only the base lubed. You have to be careful not to fill the compression groove with lube...this will effect how the bullet compresses.

[tackdriver]

Thanks Mike. Sounds like it should work. I've had consistant inconsistency of accuracy using standard minie balls. . I think I'll order a mould, whats another $100. I don't suppose you've had any experience with using a double vs a single mould and the double is worth the extra $25?

[ms3635v]

Tackdriver,

I am using a two cavity Moose Wilkinson mould and have had no problems with consistency of casts - when I first got the mould, I took the time to weigh and measure the rounds and out of the 100 I selected, they were +/- 1 to 2 grains and are were all within .001" in diameter. I let the mould warm while the lead is melting, then begin casting. I get, at most, two throwbacks in the beginning, then the rest come out great. Also, with a two cavity, you can make a ton of bullets very quickly.

[Maillemaker]

I've not had any luck with the Wilkinson in my Hoyt Richmond Carbine and Whitacer Enfield barrels, but I did get one fantastic group out of my Pedersoli P58 with 60 Grains 2F Goex. But I have not gone back and experimented.

I love the Moose double mold. With no core pin you can really crank out bullets fast.

Steve