Sighted Smoothbore Repop......

[MR. GADGET]

Was reading the latest S-line and got to thinking about maybe now that people will not be able to build up sighted SB guns from real guns maybe there will be someone that picks up on the chance to build repops to save the rest of the guns....

How hard would it be if we could build a repop?

Maybe we could talk to Armisport that is making the 1842's now and see if they would look into it?

Any thoughts, as it looks like sighted SB is the best and what gets a lot of medals at Nationals?
Kind of hard to shoot a stock repop and keep up with those that have a rear sight.

[Jim_Burgess_2078V]

I was pleased to read in the latest Skirmish Line that the Small Arms Committee will no longer approve sighted smoothbores recently converted from original, unsighted smoothbores in the interest of preserving Civil War material culture. Even though many of us do reasonably well with unsighted smoothbores, the sighted smoothbores seem to have an advantage. It is not a level playing field. Rather than seeing a proliferation of reproduction sighted smoothbores on the line, I would prefer to see the sighted smoothbores banned from competition entirely or be put in a separate class.
Jim Burgess, 15th CVI

[MR. GADGET]

Rather than seeing a proliferation of reproduction sighted smoothbores on the line, I would prefer to see the sighted smoothbores banned from competition entirely or be put in a separate class.
Jim Burgess, 15th CVI


That is a very good point and one I would like to see.
For those that shoot a normal Repop 42 can not even do anything to the gun really, but those with sighted are making different blades for the rear, even seen some with high front sights and other with a 25 and 50 hole drilled in the rear.

Kind of hard to see why they are all in the same group....
Said for several years they should have a sighted and unsighted class.

For the new shooters it is turning this sport into a $$$ sport if you want to play.
That is the biggest thing I get taking new people to shoots trying to get them to join.
They state they can go shoot 3 gun or cowboy shooting for less money and pick up new bone stock guns to do it.

[Rich Foster]

If everything is true what you said about what some people are doing to sighted smoothbores they are doing it illegally and if i saw one I would protest it promptly. Sights on a smoothbore cannot be altered in any way. Since you are aware of seeing this why have you not Protest their Firearm? They are CHEATING if they are changing there sights in any form from the original issue. Just my thought and I shoot a sighted smoothbore legally. A rear sight does help you get on the target a little faster but it is the load Prep. and the person pulling the trigger that makes it shoot well. Rich

[Eggman]

I became aware of this issue at the National so I turned to one of our smoothbore big guns, John Payne (Kenny's brother) and asked where he stood on the sight/no sight conundrum. John seemed surprised at the dispute and exclaimed, "Sights???? We don't need no stinkin' sights."

[MR. GADGET]

Rich,

Not sure it is my place to say anything as I'm not really that worried about it.
I would need to do a little more looking, have all the facts about the guns to be sure.

I do know what I seen, and the fact some of the guns, even repops have taller or brass sight on the front.
One guy even point out one that was next to us that looked like it had a front sight for a rifled 42.
I could see that between mine and others that were there stock.

As for the rear sights, was not watching them shoot to see if they use the holes or flip up the sight to get to it. I did see several that had a hole on the rear.

As for all the build ups and parts guns being built, who knows how or what they were to start.
There are people on the line that should be checking these guns, one with think it is there job to look all the guns over.

I'm there to have fun, and shoot the best I can with what I got. I do put in a bunch of time and give it my best.

Who knows, maybe they need to look again at some of the carded guns to see if they are in the limits.
The fact is, there are so many different ones and the info to be learned about them I just don't have the time currently to learn enough about all them.

I do have one question.
The rear sight, as per what I could see had to be stock? Correct.
Does that say that there should be no holes or offset notch, grove or anything in it?

How many different height and type of front sight can there be? None really look the same, even on the guns that were said to be the same.

[Rich Foster]

Yes the rear sight should be as they were installed by the contractor when the gun was made or converted. No modification can be made. If you want to use the word Stock then you right. If anybody has modified there rear sight than what was issued for that Smoothbore they are in rules violation. This violation would be compared like somebody shooting a hooded front sight on there musket. As far as front sight if somebody has raised there front sight higher that Issue dimensions they are doing nothing but CHEATING to try win a medal. As a shooter and builder of smoothbores I can spot them right off. The funny thing is altering the smoothbore sight from issue does not need to be done. Load information on this board shows that a round ball can be shot on a pretty flat plane from 25-100yds using sights installed on the guns built back in early to mid 1800's. If you don't have the right ball size,load and lube for your smoothy a scope mounted on your gun would not help you. I have fun shooting smoothbore. I shake my head and smile when I see a slightly taller front sight on a smoothbore. Would love to see the guy shooting with the peep sight on his smoothy. Would make a great picture. Rich

[Maillemaker]

I do know what I seen, and the fact some of the guns, even repops have taller or brass sight on the front.

I believe the original 1842s had brass front sights, and some people "defarb" the reproductions and replace the incorrect integrally-cast steel front site with a brass one. I don't think this is a problem.

Steve

[MR. GADGET]

I believe the original 1842s had brass front sights, and some people "defarb" the reproductions and replace the incorrect integrally-cast steel front site with a brass one. I don't think this is a problem.

Steve

I did hear that and seen a few that are taller then normal.
So the question is, in the case of the off center castings of the front sight on the nose cap and they were clocked off some to the right or left..... Several members and there were old postings that stated you could not remove and relocate it to be centered on top. That was altering the factory sight.

But you can remove it and replace it with brass and say it was defarbed? Do they check the height? They do not all look the same.

[geowilh39]

I have a 3 band Armisport 1842 that had the steel front sight manufactured off center. I replaced the front band with one that I purchaced from Lodgewood with the proper brass blade. To legally use the musket in smoothbore competition I had to have a SAC approval. The inspector measured the brass blade to make sure it matches the allowed contour, width and height. Which is the same as the original 42 would have had. I wouldn't call what I did defarbing as I made no other modification to the gun to remove makers marks or anything like that.

[John Holland]

The info from geowilh39 is correct.

[Maillemaker]

Which is the same as the original 42 would have had. I wouldn't call what I did defarbing as I made no other modification to the gun to remove makers marks or anything like that.

You defarbed, you just didn't defarb everything. :)

This picture shows an original 1842 on top and a defarbed repro bottom:
http://i.imgur.com/Q9SVDO9.jpg

[hobbler]

The lack of windage adjustment really was a major deficiency in the weapon's design. Oh well, I still love the Fremont.

[MR. GADGET]

The one on the bottom, Repop looks taller and shorter to me.
Is that the cap being different?

[hp gregory]

im a little confused as to why smoothbores are in a differant class than other nssa guns. must guns are allowed a good bit of sight improvement that goes way beyond what was used during the war. pureist would say no changes should be allowed on any gun. the problem with that is due to the age of most nssa members hardly anyone would be able to see the orignal sights.
if smoothbores need to be kept purely original thats fine with me. any of them can easily be sighted in meerly by flexing the barrels. i have done quite a few both originals and repros. so there is realy no need in messing with the sights at all.
as far as people making up hand made H&P smoothys out of other guns i have mixed feelings. some say you are destroying historical weapons to do it. well if thats the case what are we doing when we have a barrel lined. what are we doing when we replace a roached out barrel with a reproduction. thats certainly changing the gun from what it once was.how about installing repro parts in the lock when a breakage happens. thats certainly taking away the originality of the gun. look at whats allowed for sights. peep plates, taller front sights that are dovetailed, wider front sights. all this is done for the sake of shooting. how can you on one hand say this is ok but for some one to use an original firearm that no one collects or cares about as the basis for a reproduction arm they can shoot is wrong.
all of this stuff is a tuff call for the folks in charge. are we a shooting outfit or an outfit that protects civil war arms. hopefully we are both. the thing i would like to see is more discussion on how needed guns could be made up without destroying the donnar gun. i know it can be done. its only a matter of figuring out how.
now for those of you who think there is an advantage to rear sights. of course there is. however for the size of the targets we shoot at 25 yds i dont think they are such a huge advantage. at 50 yds maybe more so. but there are a lot of fine scores turned in by unsighted smoothbores. could all of these problems be related to sight envy. i sure hope not. the sighted guns have been allowed and hard earned money has been spent. i would sure hope some common sense prevails in this situation and some middle ground can be found. when its all said and done a good shooting smoothy is all about the ammo and the shooter squeezing the trigger.

hp

[Maillemaker]

the sighted guns have been allowed and hard earned money has been spent.

I'm pretty sure what I read in the Skirmish Line was that all guns with existing SAC cards will be grandfathered in.


The one on the bottom, Repop looks taller and shorter to me.
Is that the cap being different?

I agree it looks a bit taller, but in length it goes from one end of the nose cap band to the other, as the original does. It looks like the band is not quite as wide on the reproduction.

Steve

[R. McAuley 3014V]

I agree with hp, there's really no need in fiddling with the sights at all. When I am shooting my full length M1842, the front sight simply isn't low enough for me to sight on the target because the musket's bore is about in-line with the target at 25 and 50 yards, so I have to shoot it like I'm aiming a M79 grenade launcher! By "feel" more than anything because I cannot even see the target for the muzzle being in the way. With the 30-inch Macon and 24-inch Razee .69 carbines, at least offer me the opportunity to see the target after I pick my shoulder up off the ground between shots. But I wouldn't be shooting smoothbore at all if it wasn't such a challenge, any more than I would be shooting any of the other events. I'm not in the N-SSA to compete so much as just having fun. So bump the sights, they're overrated anyhow!

[Bob Elka, 12001]

Finally a couple well thought out postings on this subject. The flames of this were fanned from two directions both parties with a common goal. There are valid arguments to be made but at the risk
of putting the brakes on the fastest growing and arguably only expanding segment of our assn ?? If you want to go at it from a safety aspect who could possibly argue against that ? But if it's your heartfelt
belief that someone shouldn't be able to shoot an approoved sighted smoothy because your conscience can't accept it I suggest therapy. To back up what HP stated earlier I have access to a great 1816 with
standard brass front sight and no rear sight. On days when the light is good for my eyes I can shoot the centers out with it. Why ??? It's the ammo ??? Search it. There are no secrets !!! Many have repeatedly stated
what they do to achieve a well performing smoothy load recipe. Take what you like, disregard anything you don't and go have fun. The whole thought of the word "grandfathered" when apllied to approoved weapons
makes me ill. When I look back at other guns that have "grandfathered" versions it merely displays a flawed system and to claim we are getting away from past practices and do the same thing again makes one wonder.
If you assemble safe unaltered proper componets in an attempt to create an H&P facsimile for competition purposes and final dimensions are correct you should expect to recieve that little card.

[efritz]

I have to agree with all being said. I started with a repro 42 and obtained 19 points toward DSSA, but consistency was a problem and eapecially 50y. Purchased a H&P made up gun with a Hoyt barrel. Didn't do much better with it until I started asking questions on the BB. Many thanks to those who offered their advice and some of them were DSSA shooters in their on right. With their advice and over 500 rounds of testing I came up with a load that performs well at 50y. In fact this past Nat'l. won the SB agg. The sighted SB is what I needed to take me over the top. As with all my equipment improvements had to be made in order to be better. I shoot an original Mdl 1 Maynard carbine. Instead of relining the very bad original barrel I opted for two barrels from John Bly. One in .50 cal. and one in .36 cal. The firearm can be returned to original condition at any time. I'm not independently wealthy but we do well enough to afford my toys. It's what I've been doing since I was 9 years old, 61 now (shooting competitively).

Sometime in the future even the repro firearms that have been worked on in some fashion will be considered to have been butchered. One just has to look at Colt revolvers. 1 st generation, 2nd generation. Imagine if they were worked on when new and what the difference in price would be today. I believe it has to be up to the individuals and not the BOD to decide. There are options. Yes, it involves money, but it also involves time and effort.

Not too long ago we started shooting single shot. Now you want to talk about working on firearms. Try to find a repro Wesson, Ballard, Joslyn, etc. that will fire center fire. None made. If the BOD steps in on limiting the work on SB then it should never have allowed single shot.

On the table with the BOD is my proposal to expand pistol competition with single shot smoothbore for individuals only. No team events. There are no repros of these either. Do we cease expanding or regress to the point of shooting nothing but what can be obtained as a reproduction because 99% of all originals have to be worked on. We have become a shooting organization that gets dressed up like Civil War solders to some degree. We offer medals and trophys in multiple classes and categorys. All based on accuracy in shooting. Not authenticity.

My point in all this is you can only go as far as your equipment will let you. If Ben Waites, Larry Brockmiller, All Reihle, HP, and all the others were shooting original ratty muskets and carbines, do you think they would be DSSA winners?

I'm sorry if I rambled and perhaps a little more than $.02 worth. Just my feelings.

Respectively
Eric Fritz
149th PVI

[Bob Elka, 12001]

Thank You Eric.....

Much more eloquent then I'm capable of..............

[Rich Foster]

Well Said ERIC. 1/256 of 1 percent of m1816's is about 956 guns considering 1.2 million made. I know that not half of that have been turned into what has been called a FAKE H&P. Well my romano marynard is a fake, my euroarms Miss. a fake, Henry rifle is really a fake, Remington pistol a fake amd my H&P smoothbore is a fake. I was considering single shot but maybe I should change my mind because I would have to change the way the reciever fires the cartidge and maybe reline the bore, not in original form and never can be returned to original form but this is allowed. Maybe I should sell all my fakes and buy orginals and just sit at home and look at them. But then again I have been a member of the N-SSA for 35 years and it has been all about shooting civil war guns SAFELY, ACCURATELY and collecting original firearms. WOW lets talk about safety of original civil war firearms. I would not shoot a M1816 MOFDIFIED CONE IN PERCUSSION CONVERSION with a 20 foot rope tied to the trigger. Now a Modified M1816 with a NEW full bolster breech is much safer. Rich

[Pennsltucky]

Gentlemen and Ladies,
The question becomes in all of our shooting events, are we in it to preserve history or in it for the competitive shooting? If you were to go down the line, most of the members would say that they were showing what it was like to be an infantryman in the Civil War by shooting the guns and wearing the uniforms of both sides, but are we really? How may tall sights are on guns? How many peep sights are drilled into the back sight? How many barrels have been changed to create a more accurate gun? How many Zouave's are on the line?
I will agree that most original guns should not be fired. My grandfather and father both shot an original gun in the NSSA, but I would never shoot it for the age and the amount it has been shot. Reproductions have been made to a fair degree of accuracy to the originals. These guns are the closest and safest to the originals that we can get at this time.
We also know these weapons can be accurate in the hands of expert person (not me). With the correct bullets, these guns are very accurate. But that is just the start for most competitors. Some sink in hundreds and thousands of dollars to modify the weapons to try to make them even more accurate or at least consistent. This is where we as an organization lose a lot of people who cannot compete in the weapon modification war for winning.
I am more in this organization for the history rather than the competitive shooting and that is why most of the weapons I own will not be changing the weapon for the sake of making me a more consistent shooter. I will be changing the rounds and amount of powder to try to help. If I can afford it, I would take my newest weapon that I purchased and take it back to the original sight fixture.
As for the sighted smoothies, I have no problem if the gun is an original or a reproduction of the gun that has a back sight, even if I think that is not the true reason we have the competition in the first place. We have this so a person could buy a gun and shoot against the best in the organization without any special equipment. Altering original guns is wrong. If Civil War gunsmiths did the modification, converting flint to percussion, that is not a modification. They had to in a time of war. We are supposed to keep their memory alive with this shooting, but we are not.
We have lost the meaning of the organization. We have modified the weapons in every way we can without adding plastic into the gun. We pull out shooting helpers, scopes and eyeglasses with sights on them, to help with our accuracy. If you want to see our preserving history, just go down the line, look at the modified weapons, guns that were not used in the Civil War, and the denim uniforms with the cowboy hats with chords hanging off of them, that is the way we preserve our heritage. This thread is just a manifestation of the problem of the organization. It is getting too expensive and is not showing accurately the way Civil War soldiers shot.
Mark Klinepeter
6th Kentucky
US History Teacher

[Rich Foster]

Mark, I can tell your comments are sincere. The N-SSA was formed for the competition of shooting civil war firearms. Yes at the beginning it was who could out shoot who and what team could out shoot other teams. This is still how the format is today. We are not reenacting the civil war, but using civil war type firearms to compete with. To make it competitive and more enjoyable slight modifications were made as the years went by. Made it easier for a person to get on target with good equipment from the start. I don't think we have lost our way. Infact rules have become more clearer and easily available on the web. When I started if I had a rule question you had to find a person with a rule book and hoped it was updated. I can see where you are coming from with the uniform dress and it was improved some back in the 90's, but still more needs to done on trousers. There is no reason why any skirmisher should be wearing modern store bought slacks. They should be Civil War Period. What is nice about the N-SSA we don't have a Dictator telling us what we should do. The members elect officers to run things and I applaude those volunteers that do so. They should always listen to the members on all situations. It is a great organization and have been a member since age 15 going on my 35th year enjoying every minute. Rich

[Maillemaker]

I have a somewhat different view on using authentic weapons. I think it's fine. In fact, my dream one day is to spend about $5000 to buy a pristine Enfield and then shoot it. I don't buy safe queens. Every gun I own I shoot, and that's why I buy them. I think if someone has the money and wants to buy and shoot an original Civil War firearm, that's their business. I don't think there are any shortage of firearms in museums to preserve history. The rest? If you can afford 'em, do what you want with 'em.

But since I can't afford originals that don't look 150 years old, I use reproductions. I'm fine with that, also.

So long as competitors get to buy their own equipment, you will always have people spending money to buy the best that can be had. That's just the nature of the beast.

If you wanted to get "authentic" about it, you could consider a class of competition using issued ammunition. Or, if you could swing it somehow, even issued arms. Wouldn't that be a sight!

My impression is that the N-SSA is an older demographic. I think a lot of the modifications we allow are geared at helping older shooters be able to keep shooting with their old eyes. Just in the last couple of years I have noticed my eyes start to deteriorate. It's hard to keep both the front and rear sights in focus.

Steve

[Muley Gil]

"It's hard to keep both the front and rear sights in focus."

Steve, you have NEVER been able to keep the front and rear sights in focus at the same time. The human eye isn't set up to focus on more than one thing at a time.


When we were young, it appeared that both sights and the target were in focus because the young eye could switch back and forth with amazing speed. As we age, the eye is no longer able to do this. Thus, we should focus on the front sight and let the target and the rear sight blur. If we practice enough, the proper sight alinement (front sight in the rear sight notch) should be automatic. So it is a matter of putting that front sight, which is in focus, onto the blurred target, either on a dead on hold or a 6 o'clock hold, whichever we prefer.

I learned many, many years ago from an expert firearms instructor: FRONT SIGHT, TRIGGER SQUEEZE; FRONT SIGHT, TRIGGER SQUEEZE.


Now, I just need to put all of my advice into practice when I shoot! :)

[ms3635v]

Steve, I want to echo Muley Gils' comment about the front sight being in focus at all times. As a former police firearms instructor, I always taught that the front sight should be focused, and the rear sight and the target will be slightly out of focus. As long as you can clearly see the front sight and control you breathing and trigger control, your shots should go where you aim them. The caveat here is that you firearm is properly sighted-in for your eyes and you have found the bullet/powder charge that works best in your musket, carbine, etc.

[Maillemaker]

Just got back from the range. Yup, that's what I'm doing - keeping the front sight in focus and letting the rear sight do as best it can. :)

Today was actually a pretty good day - I could snap between sights to confirm elevation and windage very well.

I'm still not pleased with this Enfield though. Off a bench I'm only able to get about a 6" circle at best at 100 yards. It's got a very stiff trigger right now, though - maybe I need to work on that a bit. I've got a Whitacre barrel and I'm shooting a RCBS Hodgdon sized to .576 with 46 grains of FFF Goex.

Just as soon as I get some old medieval helmets sold I'm buying a Pedersoli.

Steve

[ian45662]

I am nor saying it cant be done but I was never able to get the hodgon to do anything at 100 yards and the same is true with the 315 grain semi wadcutter. 50 yards they were great but not so much at 100. I have not been able to find anything that preforms better at 100 than the 510 grain minie. I shoot the 315 grain semi @ 100 and 510 and 100. Maybe others have had luck with the lighter bullets past 50 but not me.... Not even a little bit

[efritz]

We're off the original subject of this thread but maybe that's a good thing. The horse is black and blue and besides the issue of sighted smoothbores has been at least tabled if not forgotten by the BOD for now. But since we're on the subject of vision, let me just add a couple of suggestions for anyone contemplating eyeware. Ask you eye doctor if you can bring your firearm, (pistol, carbine, musket) to the office. It will help in the evaluation. Then after that, request round frames. The reason being only in round frames can the lenses be swapped. Get two different lenses. One the next magnification up from the one you currently require. As your vision gets worse you can swap. Since I believe most shooters squint with one eye, only one lens is used at a time. When done shooting, put your regular glasses back on. It gets you a little more longevity out of your shooting eyeware. Oh, and stay away from the plastic safety lenses. They pit from exploding caps.

Hope this helps

[MR. GADGET]

We're off the original subject of this thread but maybe that's a good thing.

Yep I would say so....

I ask a question about making a repop sighted smoothbore and the post turns to crap...

Turns to a lot of beating and bashing....

What fun.....

This is sure to bring new members.