Looking to get my first 3 band Enfield

[MIR]

Looked at the Armi, Euroarms ..but have not seen the Pedersoli yet. A while back I almost bought a Euroarms and was going to get Whitacre to put a newer and better barrel on it for me. Im not a reenact or but I love historical arms and I like collecting shooting them as well. So what is the verdict on the Pedersoli Enfield? I know it may still need some defarbing, but would that be wise to do and I don't know if it is really necessary to do since I am not a reenactor. I am primarily a shooter, but at the same rate, I do like as much "historical correctness" as possible, when possible.
From what little I have heard, the Pedersoli offering is a better shooting gun that their counterparts, then of course there is the option of sending a Armi or Euroarms to Whitacre.

[Jud96]

Looked at the Armi, Euroarms ..but have not seen the Pedersoli yet. A while back I almost bought a Euroarms and was going to get Whitacre to put a newer and better barrel on it for me. Im not a reenact or but I love historical arms and I like collecting shooting them as well. So what is the verdict on the Pedersoli Enfield? I know it may still need some defarbing, but would that be wise to do and I don't know if it is really necessary to do since I am not a reenactor. I am primarily a shooter, but at the same rate, I do like as much "historical correctness" as possible, when possible. From what little I have heard, the Pedersoli offering is a better shooting gun that their counterparts, then of course there is the option of sending a Armi or Euroarms to Whitacre.There is no reason to send an Armi Sport, with a good bore, off to Whitacre or anyone else to get a new barrel in it. My father and I both shoot Armi Sport 1853 Enfields and they shoot great with the factory barrel. This will actually be my first year shooting the Armi Sport but my Dad has used his for the last 15 years with great success in skirmishing, hunting, and even shooting out to 500yards with it. If you get the Armi Sport sighted in and get a good bullet like a Lyman .575213 these rifles shoot great. Make sure you have the bullet sized .001-.002 under the bore diameter and get good soft lead. Our Enfields will shoot one hole at 50yards and breaks targets all day at 50 and 100yards if we do our part.

[Maillemaker]

I would get the Pedersoli.

The Armisport and the Pedersoli are about the same price.

Armisport has recently royally screwed up the shape of their stocks. They were trying to recontour them to be more historically correct, and they horribly botched it. That means there are screwed up P53 Armisports in the supply chain right now. I would not, under any circumstances, buy one sight unseen. There is a thread about this over on cwreenactors.com.

The Pedersoli is currently the most accurate P53 reproduction available. It probably has higher quality lock components also, as they are known for high quality guns.

Both of my reproduction muskets, an Armisport Richmond Carbine and a Euroarms P53 have had lock problems. Weak springs that I had to retemper, and a soft/broken sear.

The new Pedersoli Enfield has the following improvements over the Armisport and the old Euroarms:

Square-eared lock washers
Correct sling swivels
Barrel proof marks consistent with BSAT
Lockplate markings consistent with BSAT
Stock cartouche consistent with BSAT
Period correct weight.

Space Cowboy did a YouTube video on the new Pedersoli P53 and it seemed to shoot quite accurately. Pedersoli places an emphasis on competition shooting.

The cheapest place I've seen to get them is Cabela's. They are about $850 as I recall.

As soon as I sell off some medieval helmets I'm buying a Pedersoli and if it shoots as good as they say I'm selling my Euroarms P53 with Whitacre barrel.

Steve

[R. McAuley 3014V]

With the increase in retail pricing for replica Enfields now eclipsing the prices of originals have you given any consideration to simply buying an original Enfield that wont require being defarbed? Not all original guns are in the "collector" class but are still in very nice condition for shooting. I shot an original Enfield for upwards of 20 years with no appeciable wear to it, as have many others. Something toconsider.

[Space Cowboy]

MIR,

I have the new Pedersoli 3 band on hand for testing with the new bullet mold and new sizer for the bore. I am taking it to the range today, and in 1-2 days I'll have the video of the test on my youtube channel. So if you did not decide yet, wait a few more days.

Cheers,
SC

[Southron Sr.]

While three bander Enfields (with the 39 inch barrels) can shoot wonderful groups, the two bander Enfield (with the 33 inch barrels) are FASTER to load in team competition. With the two bander, there is 6 inches LESS of barrel you have to jam a bullet and ramrod down EVERY TIME YOU LOAD and 6 inches LESS of barrel you have to withdraw a ramrod from! My point being-a two bander Enfield is FASTER TO LOAD AND SHOOT in team competiton. Just look at the pics on the cover of the Skirmish Line of the teams that win the Nationals. You will note that most of those Skirmishers are shooting two bander rifles!!!

With the exception of Parker-Hale and Pedersoli ALL of the replica two band Enfield manufacturers BOTCHED IT (they used the wrong rifling twist)!

The original, two band Naval Rifle and P-60 Enfields that had the "Heavy Barrel" and the 1 in 48 Inch Twist barrels were SO ACCURATE that in the 1860's ANY BRITISH NRA MEMBER THAT SHOWED UP AND SHOT AT A BRITISH NRA MATCH HAD HIS FINAL MATCH SCORE DEDUCTED BY 10% BECAUSE THE NAVAL RIFLE AND P-60 WERE SO MUCH MORE ACCURATE THAN THE REGULAR ISSUE THREE BANDER ENFIELDS!!! That pretty well says it all when it comes to 2 Bander Enfield VS 3 Bander Enfield!

I highly recommend the Pedersoli Two Bander Enfield. It is the best replica Enfield out there now.

[Jud96]

While three bander Enfields (with the 39 inch barrels) can shoot wonderful groups, the two bander Enfield (with the 33 inch barrels) are FASTER to load in team competition. With the two bander, there is 6 inches LESS of barrel you have to jam a bullet and ramrod down EVERY TIME YOU LOAD and 6 inches LESS of barrel you have to withdraw a ramrod from! My point being-a two bander Enfield is FASTER TO LOAD AND SHOOT in team competiton. Just look at the pics on the cover of the Skirmish Line of the teams that win the Nationals. You will note that most of those Skirmishers are shooting two bander rifles!!!

With the exception of Parker-Hale and Pedersoli ALL of the replica two band Enfield manufacturers BOTCHED IT (they used the wrong rifling twist)!

The original, two band Naval Rifle and P-60 Enfields that had the "Heavy Barrel" and the 1 in 48 Inch Twist barrels were SO ACCURATE that in the 1860's ANY BRITISH NRA MEMBER THAT SHOWED UP AND SHOT AT A BRITISH NRA MATCH HAD HIS FINAL MATCH SCORE DEDUCTED BY 10% BECAUSE THE NAVAL RIFLE AND P-60 WERE SO MUCH MORE ACCURATE THAN THE REGULAR ISSUE THREE BANDER ENFIELDS!!! That pretty well says it all when it comes to 2 Bander Enfield VS 3 Bander Enfield!

I highly recommend the Pedersoli Two Bander Enfield. It is the best replica Enfield out there now.
Actually, the Armi Sport 1853 3 band rifle-musket has the perfect 1-48' twist rifling while all the other 1853s have 1-72's or 1-78's, besides a few 1853 Parker-Hales, which I own one of. I prefer the 3 bander because of the longer sight radius, same weight compared to a 2 band Enfield because of the thinner but longer barrel, and I believe it is more balanced for me. I believe the reason 2 band rifles are so popular is because most guys have trouble loading the 39' or 40' barrels found on 3 band rifle-muskets because of the length of the firearm. I'm 6'2 so a 3 bander works great for me but not so great for my 5'7 grandfather haha. Also, the EuroArms and Armi Sport 1858 Naval Rifles have 1-48' twists, not just the Parker Hale and Pedersoli's.

[Maillemaker]

Dumb question here:

I have a 2-band Richmond Carbine that, of course, I shoot in carbine matches.

Why is the 2-band Enfield not considered a carbine?

Steve

[Blair]

Steve,

Barrel length?
Blair

[Space Cowboy]

Jud,

The 1:48" twist in a 3 band Enfield is anything but correct... The original 3 banders were never produced with fast twist bores. The 2 banders are faster to reload for sure it is out of question, but the accuracy of both 3 bands and 2 bands can be excellent. <br><br>See this video I shot today about the Pedersoli 3 bander. The factory redesigned its mold and sizers to match the new bore. The match grade borrch rifled DP bores not only replicate the correct twist with 1:78", but also the correct caliber of 0,577".


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3el1FGIu6s4&amp;amp;feature=youtu.be

cheers,
SC

[Blair]

SC,

Yet one other great video! (please send me copies of all your videos if you can?)
Please post more of your work. Especially the work you did on the DP barrel making. (Very interesting info for the N-SSA Shooters)
My best,
Blair

[Smosin]

Wow! What an excellent video! I really like that DP minie sizer, I wonder if US dealers sell this tool.
Shooting results with my 3 band DP Enfield shows it to have excellent accuracy, albeit with various Lyman OS and NS and N-S minies, also sized to .576"...

Keep up the good work!

[Jud96]

Jud,

The 1:48" twist in a 3 band Enfield is anything but correct... The original 3 banders were never produced with fast twist bores. The 2 banders are faster to reload for sure it is out of question, but the accuracy of both 3 bands and 2 bands can be excellent. <br><br>See this video I shot today about the Pedersoli 3 bander. The factory redesigned its mold and sizers to match the new bore. The match grade borrch rifled DP bores not only replicate the correct twist with 1:78", but also the correct caliber of 0,577".


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3el1FGIu6s4&amp;amp;feature=youtu.be

cheers,
SC

I know that a 1-48'' twist isn't correct for an 1853 Enfield, but to be honest I don't care to much about it as long as my Armi Sport shoots one hole groups with a 1-48. A 1-78'' twist is actually a round ball twist found in long rifles while a 1-48'' twist is a conical twist which would stabilize a minnie ball better. One reason the original Naval and Army rifles were more accurate than the rifle-muskets was because of the twists used. I'm not doubting the accuracy of the Pedersoli's 1853 Enfield or its products, I'm just saying a 1-48'' twist is better suited for a minnie ball.

[Southron Sr.]

Actually, the Armi Sport 1853 3 band rifle-musket has the perfect 1-48' twist rifling while all the other 1853s have 1-72's or 1-78's, besides a few 1853 Parker-Hales, which I own one of. I prefer the 3 bander because of the longer sight radius, same weight compared to a 2 band Enfield because of the thinner but longer barrel, and I believe it is more balanced for me. I believe the reason 2 band rifles are so popular is because most guys have trouble loading the 39' or 40' barrels found on 3 band rifle-muskets because of the length of the firearm. I'm 6'2 so a 3 bander works great for me but not so great for my 5'7 grandfather haha. Also, the EuroArms and Armi Sport 1858 Naval Rifles have 1-48' twists, not just the Parker Hale and Pedersoli's.

There is a misconception out there that the Armi-Sport Enfields have the 1 in 48" Twist. THIS IS INCORRECT due to a mistake in the Dixie Gun Works catalog description of the Armi Sport Enfields. According to the Armi Sport website the actual twist on their 3 Band Enfield is 1 Turn in 1660 M/M. This figures out to be a 1 in 65 & 23/64" Twist!

[Space Cowboy]

SC,

Yet one other great video! (please send me copies of all your videos if you can?)
Please post more of your work. Especially the work you did on the DP barrel making. (Very interesting info for the N-SSA Shooters)
My best,
Blair

Blair,

Thanks! All my videos can be found on my youtube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/capandball

Best regards,
SC

[Space Cowboy]

There is a misconception out there that the Armi-Sport Enfields have the 1 in 48" Twist. THIS IS INCORRECT due to a mistake in the Dixie Gun Works catalog description of the Armi Sport Enfields. According to the Armi Sport website the actual twist on their 3 Band Enfield is 1 Turn in 1660 M/M. This figures out to be a 1 in 65 & 23/64" Twist!

Hi Southron,

Actually I had also an Armi Sport Sringfield with 1:48 twist in my hand. A friend is the owner, but he was not lucky to find a good load for the gun.

cheers,
SC

[Space Cowboy]

I know that a 1-48'' twist isn't correct for an 1853 Enfield, but to be honest I don't care to much about it as long as my Armi Sport shoots one hole groups with a 1-48. A 1-78'' twist is actually a round ball twist found in long rifles while a 1-48'' twist is a conical twist which would stabilize a minnie ball better. One reason the original Naval and Army rifles were more accurate than the rifle-muskets was because of the twists used. I'm not doubting the accuracy of the Pedersoli's 1853 Enfield or its products, I'm just saying a 1-48'' twist is better suited for a minnie ball.

Hi Jud,

If the rules do not disqualify the gun because of this, it is ok. However as I am an MLAIC target shooter in the first place, we have to care about this. In MLAIC matches the gun has to replicate the original twist, size and number of grooves, and original caliber. Only the rifling depth can be different.

cheers,
SC

[Space Cowboy]

Wow! What an excellent video! I really like that DP minie sizer, I wonder if US dealers sell this tool.
Shooting results with my 3 band DP Enfield shows it to have excellent accuracy, albeit with various Lyman OS and NS and N-S minies, also sized to .576"...

Keep up the good work!

Thanks! And I confirm that Pedersoli bores do like Lyman Miniés!

[Southron Sr.]

Dear Space Cowboy:

There seems to be something almost "Magic" about the 1 in 48" Twist in .577 Enfield barrels. The Enfield P-58 Naval Rifle and the P-60 Army Short Rifle used identical 5 Land & Groove barrels with the 1 in 48" Twist and they were very accurate. The "Hay Pattern Enfield" also used the 1 in 48" Twist with 3 Lands & Grooves and it proved to be very accurate also.

Colonel Charles Hay was the commander of the Hythe School of Musketry and apparently took his job very seriously when it came to experimenting with and making improvements to the Enfields. He had influence on the design of the P-58 Naval Rifle, the P-60 Army Rifle and designed the "Hay Pattern Enfield" even though it was never officially adopted. New Zealand purchased a large quantity of the Hay Pattern Enfields and used them in the Maori Wars, they proved to be very accurate.

Then back in the 1970's when Parker-Hale re-introduced the 3 Bander P-53 Enfields they also used the 1 in 48" Twist in their barrels but the MLAGB disqualified those P-H Enfields because they did not have the standard 1 in 72" Twist of the originals. Hence, a lot of the 3 band P-H Enfields with the 1 in 48" Twist got exported to the United States. I had one of those years ago and it was extremely accurate.

I didn't know that Armi-Sport had ever produced either a replica Enfield Naval Rifle or a replica P-53 with a 1 in 48" Twist! Thanks for the info. Too bad they still don't produce them with that 1 in 48" Twist!!!

[Jud96]

Dear Space Cowboy:

There seems to be something almost "Magic" about the 1 in 48" Twist in .577 Enfield barrels. The Enfield P-58 Naval Rifle and the P-60 Army Short Rifle used identical 5 Land & Groove barrels with the 1 in 48" Twist and they were very accurate. The "Hay Pattern Enfield" also used the 1 in 48" Twist with 3 Lands & Grooves and it proved to be very accurate also.

Colonel Charles Hay was the commander of the Hythe School of Musketry and apparently took his job very seriously when it came to experimenting with and making improvements to the Enfields. He had influence on the design of the P-58 Naval Rifle, the P-60 Army Rifle and designed the "Hay Pattern Enfield" even though it was never officially adopted. New Zealand purchased a large quantity of the Hay Pattern Enfields and used them in the Maori Wars, they proved to be very accurate.

Then back in the 1970's when Parker-Hale re-introduced the 3 Bander P-53 Enfields they also used the 1 in 48" Twist in their barrels but the MLAGB disqualified those P-H Enfields because they did not have the standard 1 in 72" Twist of the originals. Hence, a lot of the 3 band P-H Enfields with the 1 in 48" Twist got exported to the United States. I had one of those years ago and it was extremely accurate.

I didn't know that Armi-Sport had ever produced either a replica Enfield Naval Rifle or a replica P-53 with a 1 in 48" Twist! Thanks for the info. Too bad they still don't produce them with that 1 in 48" Twist!!!

I agree 100%. The 1-48'' is the magical twist for a minnie rifle. I'm positive that both my Parker Hale and Armi Sport 3 banders have 1-48s because when you look down the barrel the rifling makes nearly a whole revolution compared to about half a revolution that my Dad's Hawken makes with a 1-66'' twist.