Palmetto 1842 musket

[GPM]

Through the years I have seen several model 42 Palmetto muskets that appear to be correct with the exception of steel bands instead of brass. Murphy and Madaus make no mention of this variation. I've heard a few speculate that some of the early guns might have been assembled with purchased surplus parts, others say they are repaired arms or outright fake. Any opinions?

[Minieball577]

If you can find the book (pamphlet really, at about 60 pages, mostly pictures) called "William Glaze and the Palmetto Armory: By Jack Allen Meyer‎" put out by the S.C. Archives, there is some material written concerning the likliehood of early "Palmetto" muskets being fitted with iron hardware as the initial contracts were let out to the B. Flagg firm, located in the north, for production. And then subsequently were produced by Wm. Glaze and Company at his Columbia factory.

It has been a while since I have looked at this source, but I know there is some documentation for iron mounted Palmetto arms.

[Minieball577]

I went back and checked Murphy and Madaus again, and in the opening paragraphs of the chapter on Wm. Glaze the relationship between Glaze and Flagg is highlighted noting the first 100 arms delivered may have been on machinery Flagg acquired from A. Waters whom he was partnered with for production of U.S. M1842 muskets. These arms, if made on the same Waters/Flagg machinery would have conformed to the U.S. pattern.

Also, in checking Murphy and Maduas' sources for the chapter on Glaze they list the book by Jack Allen Meyer‎ that I recommended before as their first source.

The Meyer book shows several variations of the Palmetto stamps used on various Glaze products and suggests that one of the variations was an earlier stamp. If I recall it suggests that Flagg could have marked the arms with this earlier stamp.

Anyway, you can sometimes find the Meyer book on Ebay.

[John Gross]

Through the years I have seen several model 42 Palmetto muskets that appear to be correct with the exception of steel bands instead of brass. Murphy and Madaus make no mention of this variation. I've heard a few speculate that some of the early guns might have been assembled with purchased surplus parts, others say they are repaired arms or outright fake. Any opinions?

There are legitimate Palmetto Muskets with iron bands, as well as non-Glaze marked barrels.

There is considerable information that Glaze did not actually manufacture his arms but simply assembled them from surplus and condemned parts. He also had a number of barrels burst during proofing, hence his need for replacement barrels, and had difficulity in procuring brass for the bands. For evidence of this see; "William Glaze and the Palmetto Armory", by Jack Meyer, pages 18, 19, and 37; Flayderman's 9th Edition, #6A-043, page 333; "The Origin of the Palmetto Pistols", Man at Arms, No. 5 (2000), pages 38-43.

Since pictures are always best, here's a Palmetto Musket of mine on consignmeant at The Horse Soldier with iron bands and a non-Glaze marked barrel. Remember that rust and patina are often times your best friend to determine authenticity :D

John Gross

http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/379/379388/pages/1096461/m18421.jpg

http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/379/379388/pages/1096462/m18422.jpg

http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/379/379388/pages/1096463/m18423.jpg

http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/379/379388/pages/1096459/m18425.jpg

http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/379/379388/pages/1096460/m18426.jpg

[GPM]

Sincere thanks for the info guys.

[John Holland]

John,

As always your information is very appreciated, and thank you for the excellent quality photo's.

You mentioned that there are examples without the Wm. Glaze marks on the barrel. Are those barrels devoid of any marks?

Is the Palmetto musket you have shown one of those arms without Wm. Glaze barrel markings?

Thank you.

John Holland

[John Gross]

John,

As always your information is very appreciated, and thank you for the excellent quality photo's.

You mentioned that there are examples without the Wm. Glaze marks on the barrel. Are those barrels devoid of any marks?

Is the Palmetto musket you have shown one of those arms without Wm. Glaze barrel markings?

Thank you.

John Holland


Hello John,

The Palmetto pictured here has no Glaze markings on the barrel, and instead of the VP/Palmetto Tree has the VP/Eaglehead and is undated (and it's in good enough condition that if a date had ever been there it would still be visable). Since some Palmettos were made with condemned parts, a "C" might be found in some locations on various parts.

As you can see from the photos, the dark, crusty patina shows that these iron bands and barrel have been together forever, and the bottom of the barrel which has been protected by the wood retains the same bright finish.

John Gross

[Lee Hoffecker]

If anyone would like a copy of Jack Allen Meyer's book, "William Glaze and the Palmetto Armory" please contact me and I will be glad to pickup a copy for you at the next Columbia, SC gun show. Mr Myers is usually there selling copies of his book. The cost of the book is $10.00 to $12.00.
Please call me at: 843 277 1049.
Lee

[GPM]

I have a M1842 that I made a few years before the Armi Sport version came out. I had considered turning it into a Palmetto if I could find a repro plate. Does Rich Cross make a repro Palmetto plate for the M42? I thought I stumbled accross an old posting for one some time back but can not find it now.

[Minieball577]

Yes, Rich makes the plate. Beautiful stamps on it too.

[GPM]

Anyone have contact info for Rich?

[Jim Bone 4902V]

If you get to Greenville SC check out the Museum and Library of Confederate History . They have one with brass and one with metal bands on display.






Jim Bone
1st S.Carolina

[medbill]

Anyone ever see one without the Palm Tree stamp on the lock plate but with Columbia, SC 1852 still on it and a US buttplate?

[R. McAuley 3014V]

John,

As always your information is very appreciated, and thank you for the excellent quality photo's.

You mentioned that there are examples without the Wm. Glaze marks on the barrel. Are those barrels devoid of any marks?

Is the Palmetto musket you have shown one of those arms without Wm. Glaze barrel markings?

Thank you.

John Holland

John,

Do you remember the original M1842 barrel that I showed you that had the two seams that had opened along one side, and I suggested how the fact that the "V" view mark was in the place typically reserved for the "P" proofmark, this was the order found on Glaze barrels. There was also no P mark or any eagle or tree or any other marking on the barrel, and too, it was only rough-bored. But even this still did not prevent it from being stocked and used.

Richard

[medbill]

If someone has an extra copy of this book or knows where I can get one please give me a shout. medbill@hvc.rr.com

Thanks much!

Billy

[R. McAuley 3014V]

I'm not sure whether this was where I obtained my copy of Meyer's book, but you might check with the NPS bookstore at Chickamauga National Battlefield.

[Southron Sr.]

When I was doing research on the Georgia Armory Rifles in the State Archives in Morrow, GA, I did run across a reference indicating that in 1862 the Glaze company made up some of the machinery, on order, that was installed in the Georgia Armory in Milledgeville.

Apparentley, after the company delivered all the arms that South Carolina had ordered from them in the 1850's, they went into the general machine shop trade to remain in business.

It is logical to assume that when Glaze originally purchased the machinery from that company in the North, he also purchased all their unused M1842 parts and used them in the production of his early arms. This would explain why some Palmetto Muskets have steel furniture and later production arms (made entirely by glaze) would have brass furniture.

[R. McAuley 3014V]

It is logical to assume that when Glaze originally purchased the machinery from that company in the North, he also purchased all their unused M1842 parts and used them in the production of his early arms. This would explain why some Palmetto Muskets have steel furniture and later production arms (made entirely by glaze) would have brass furniture.

Although it was Benjamin Flagg who provided the expertise in the manufacture of small arms to the partnership with William Glaze and James Boatwright, this has still not prevented critics from speculating that Palmetto Armory used second-rate parts that it had purchased from northern factories, as well as condemned parts from other government contractors, when this would hardly square with the fact the only civilian manufacturers of the Model 1842 musket are given as: Asa Waters, Benjamin Flagg, and Palmetto Armory. Asa H. Waters Jr. started using trip hammers with semicircular dies for barrel-welding at his works at Millbury in 1809, a technology not introduced to Springfield Armory until 1815. Benjamin Flagg invented the milling machine, and in 1835 the firm Robbins & Flagg of Millbury built a machine for milling the curved surfaces of lock plates for Springfield Armory. [Conservative Innovators and Military Small Arms: An Industrial History of the Springfield Armory, 1794-1968 (2006), Ed. by Richard Colton; passim]

In 1841, following the death of Waters’ armory founder, Asa H. Waters Jr. (1769-1841), his son, Asa H. Waters III (1808-1887) entered into partnership with Benjamin Flagg (1807-1864), under the firm name Flagg & Waters, until Thomas J. Harrington joined the partnership when the firm changed its name to “A. H. Waters & Co.” The firm operated for 25 years until the partnership was dissolved in 1867, when Flagg's son (George H. Flagg) joined the firm, took the old cotton mill property of the old firm and continued the business of cotton manufacturing, their mills being known as the Millbury Cotton Mills. Although Benjamin Flagg had entered into partnership with William Glaze and James Boatwright in establishing Palmetto Armory, the Waters machinery evidently remained in Millbury.

Several years ago I had the opportunity to examine two M-1840 muskets marked "B. Flagg & Co/Millbury/1849" that had been fitted with a percussion barrel virtually identical to the M-1842 and had M-1842 style locks except that the stock had been inletted for flintlock battery, and Flagg had simply filled in the void with plate brass brazed to the forward edges of the iron lock-plate. Below is another variant of the Flagg Model 1840/42:

http://www.damonmills.com/Sold-40.htm (http://www.damonmills.com/Sold-40.htm)

[R Filbert]

Another question fer yuns out thar wis haf a brain more en mine - But did theys erer make them things in all brass? As to the fittins Imean .Would make a perty pole dont yall think! Id like ta build me 1 ifin they did -Come on boys help an ole reb out!

[R Filbert]

None of the replies say anyting as to the question asked - Did the palmetto come with all brass furniture-triggerguard -but ETC. Or is this a fantasy weapon?

[R. McAuley 3014V]

As Meyer says in his second edition of 1994 (p14-15):

"Glaze and Radcliffe obtained a further contract for 660 muskets in 1849 at a cost of $14.50 each ($9,570). These muskets were purchased from Benjamin Flagg and Company of Millbury, Massachusetts, and had been delivered to the state, but not yet inspected, by December 1850, when the Committee on the Military reported to the General Assembly on the transaction. The funeral of John C. Calhoun had depleted available funds, and Glaze and Radcliffe had not yet been paid. The Committee recommended paying the account if the muskets were found “worthy”. In December 1853 [1851?] the Committee on the Military again took up the problem. This time it noted that the muskets “were not of the best quality” but recommended an appropriation of $9,280 to satisfy the account… The account states that the payment was made on 22 November 1851 [sic] for 640 muskets (B. Flagg & Co.).” Meyer does not state whether the 660 muskets were iron-mounted or brass-mounted, but as a number of B. Flagg & Company muskets survive with iron bands, it is the common assumption that the first muskets supplied by Flagg were iron-mounted.

Beginning on page 17, Meyers explores the circumstances of the 1852-3 contract for 6,000 muskets, and when on 28 April 1852 a report on the progress made intimated:

“… all the requisite machinery for making muskets & pistols complete, is now on hand and ready for immediate use. In consequence of an extensive conflagration in the Machine Shop where a part of their machinery had been ordered, an unavoidable delay was caused in its receipt at the Armory, and also on account of the difficulty of having the brass castings of the musket bands made here, your contractors Messrs Glaze and Flagg were induced to purchase beyond the limits of the State, 5 or 600 lock plates & the same number of brass bands, both of which where palpable departures from the letter and spirit of their contract. The lock plates by the arrival of additional machinery, will now be made in this city, and the casting of the bands be contracted for with Mr. Bull of Charleston.”

This should therefore suffice to explain the origin of the first 500 to 600 brass bands as well as the source for the latter quantity.

[Dave Fox]

To answer the simple question posed with a simplistic answer: the only brass ever on an M.1842-style musket produced by the Palmetto works appears to be brass barrel bands on some few of them and a brass foresight.

[RaiderANV]

To answer the simple question posed......... Dave.....while I'll agree yours was a very simple answer, the prize will have to go to Mr. McAuley with an indepth answer to the original question seeking "opinions". Richard gave an informative answer backed with original text. The N-SSA membership is this HUGE collective group of about the most knowledgeable folks you can find. I learns something new almost daily on this site and it's for that reason I'd never ever shoot someone down for a long answer. Well.....you can't get this in high school or college these days!!Thank you Richard for the long hours you've spent researching the info you provide on a regular basis here!

[Dave Fox]

Raider: my short answer was to Filbert's 5 March short question. It was in no way intended as a reflection upon Comrade McAuley's scholarly post: I'd like to be more like him when I grow up. He has shared his knowledge (and redundant Spencer brass) with me in the past. I'm blessed to own a Palmetto sabre, pistol and most recently acquired (with the help of friends) a Palmetto musket. No one has read this thread with more avidity than have I.

[ThomasKavanagh]

<sniip>Well.....you can't get this in high school or college these days!!</snip>

Never been in one of my classes, eh :-)

tk (aka Dr. Tom, PhD)

2883v
Co. B.
Wheat's First Special battalion, Louisiana Volunteers
Tiger Rifles