How difficult to build Richmond Carbine?

[B-Davis]

I recently did a trade with another member of the forum here, and I am recieving some Armi-sport C.S. Richmond rifle parts. With that being said, I am considering building a C.S. Richmond carbine.
Before I even think about going through this whole process, I have some questions, and any suggestions or advice would be greatly appreciated!

I believe I am am getting a lock plate, butt plate, nose cap, and bands.

1. Will these parts even work with\for the carbine?
2. Looking online, I see that S&S sells a stock for the Richmond carbine, does anyone have any expirence with these stocks?
3. Also online, I believe it is Chippa (?) firearms? Is this the importer for Armi-Sport? Can parts be bought directly from them?
4. What are the lock internals? Are they 1855 or 61 parts?
5. What is the trigger bow and guard assembly?
6. Does anybody make the sling swivel that screws directly into the stock at the rear of the tigger guard?

I have "tinkered" and learned through trial and error how to fix and repair minor problems over the years, I just have never fully assembled a carbine or rifle before. Also, where can I find the spec. sheets for the Richmond carbine? I know many of you have years of expirence on repairing and buildling these types of carbines and any suggestions or advice would be GREATLY appreciated!

I also have email John Holland on the subject, and I am sure he will give me much info., I just want to throw this out here to the general forum for ANY info. I can get.

Bryan Davis

[GPM]

I think the dimensions on Italian made replicas are off enough to create a major headache on what would be your first build. A friend made a 55 musket with an armi sport barrel and discovered the bolster does not protrude as much as an original. It may require the use of an armi sport lock to get everything to line up. For a first build I would highly recommend using American made , or original parts. It makes life easier on the builder.

[Fauch125]

One suggestion would be to get all Armisport parts if available, stock, lock internals, screws. Then, if you would like a carbine, cut the full length stock down to carbine length per SAC sheet specs. You would then just need a carbine nose cap and rear sling swivel. Both are available from Nick at Gator Den. Barrel can be cut down, and a carbine front sight dovetailed on. Spec sheets are available from the SAC at the Nationals, or by e-mail.

[B-Davis]

I am hoping that I can get all Armisport parts for the project. That is something I will have to ask S&S about thier stock. As for the barrel, I am considering getting a Whitacre barrel for it.
Thank you for the advice of going to the Gator Den for the third sling swivel. As for the nose cap, I have read on some forums that you can compress the nose cap (such as a leather faced vise) to reshape the cap and fit it. Is this feasible, or should a new one be purchased?

[Fauch125]

If its a brass nose cap, you should be able to make it work. The barrel will be thicker where you're cutting it back. Careful use of dremel, sanding, and/or lightly tapping with a non marring hammer should make it work. I was thinking of the long 1855/fayetteville rifle nose cap. Also check lodgewood.com for parts if you can't find them at S&S. There's also VTI gunparts in CT, might be able to get armisport parts. Also Taylor and Company, just off the top of my head.

[jaegerstutzen]

I was lucky enough to have access to a sporterised 61 a few years back. The very first ones made had a regulation '61 lock plate and US marked steel buttplate. I had to buy the stock svivel and nosecap. Hoyt reline, Whitacre front site and good to go. Lockplate must date 61.

[Southron Sr.]

About 30 odd years ago I got a Yeck made Richmond Rifle-Musket in a rather involved trade. After some "Soul Seraching" I decided to cut it back to a Two Band Richmond [What some Skirmishers call a "Richmond Mounted Infantry Rifle."]

So, I sawed the 39 inch long barrel back to 33 inches and 'Lo and Behold!!!!'

The bore was so "off center" at 33 inches that the wall thickness at the bottom of the bore was what I called back then "Paper Thin."

Obviously, when the outside of the barrel was being turned down on the lathe, the barrel had flexed and that accounted for the off center bore.

Needless to say, I was heart sick.

So, I cut the barrel back to 24 inches and the bore was centered again!!!!

The Late Colonel Henderson in Savannah had an original Richmond Carbine, so I carried by sawed off barrel and the rest of the gun down to his house one evening. He pulled out his original Richmond Carbine, which I measured and cut my stock back to match that of the Colonel's original.

Oh yes, the brass nose cap can easily be made to fit the large O.D. of the Carbine Barrel. Just place the nose cap on the barrel where it will be when the stock is finished and the gun assembled. Take a rubber mallet and whack the brass nose cap on the naked barrel and the nose cap's sides will easily expand to fit perfectly!!!

Just follow the SAC guidelines and measurements and you will be fine!

[John Holland]

Clarification on building the 1861 Springfield as altered to a Richmond Carbine: The SAC will now accept any Model 1861 lock plate, regardless of date or contact marks.

[Jack C., 69th NY]

I have gone down both paths with building a Richmond carbine. First one was made from cutting down a full length Italian reproduction. End result was a fine shooting carbine BUT the barrel was so heavy as was the stock. It just did not feel or look right to me. It was clumsy and unappealing.
Then I got my hands on a "sporterized", cut down original musket/shotgun. With a bit of tweeking, adding wood to forearm and shortening the barrel a bit & some Bobby Hoyt relining, I ended up with a much lighter carbine that was identical to an original. The original parts gave it a much better feel. Appearance was 1000% better than the repro.
My 2 cents worth. :)

[SHARPS4953]

Im building one as we speak. I purchased a barrel and stock from Bobby Hoyt, he says he's getting away from building whole guns so I got a good deal. The lock is an Armi Sport which is different from the originals but it just fit. The other parts came from S&S except for the brass nose cap, everyone seems to be out of stock on those so I ended up reworking a CVA kentucky nose cap into one. Its a fun project...not difficult at all. Go for it.

Scott.

[B-Davis]

After contacting the gentleman that I received the parts from today, the parts are NOT Armisport, but castings for building an "original". Well this just made life a heck of a lot easier! With this being said, where to start? What would be the best recommendations for a stock? I plant on using a Whitacre barrel. What is the type of trigger assembly that is used? How about lock internals? The bands are 1861 I believe....Any suggestions and help will be greatly appreciated!

[GPM]

Dunlap makes a Richmond carbine stock.
A standard 1861 trigger assembly, and standard 1861 lock internals.
With the exception of the lockplate, rear buttstock swivel, front sight and brass buttplate and nose cap (same pattern), the Richmond carbine is a shortened M1861.
Lodgewood , S&S, Nick Brevoort and I'm sure others should have everthing you need.

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Of course, you won't know the quality of the parts until you receive them, but you really ought to price out your parts. For example, had the parts been Chiappa/Armisport, a complete lock, butt-plate, nose-cap and middle and lower bands would cost about $280 from Taylor & Co. Adding another $340 for one of Danny Whitacre's barrels, plus another $118 for front and rear sights (from S&S), and $275 for a Dunlap stock would put the cost upwards of $1,000. Both Fall Creek Sutlery and Regimenal Quartermaster each are offering the ArmiSport C.S. Richmond Carbine for $885, and Taylor & Co's MSRP runs $910. So do you really want to spend $1100 to $1375 to build your own carbine? Of course, it's your money...

[B-Davis]

You make a good argument about price, that can not be denied. In this case though there are several other issues. First, I have some parts that I would like to put to use that otherwise I would have no need for. Secondly, I would like to actually try and build a carbine or rifle at one time in my life. I would like the experience of knowing what it is like to take the time and effort to build something of this caliber. Next, even if I had bought an Armisport Richmond, I would have still stripped it down to refinish the stock, done lock work to correct the trigger pull, and STILL bought a Whitacre barrel. This process would still put me up in the price range of 1100-1300. So, if I am going to invest that much money anyway, I would rather buy original/American repro. parts. I also am supporting smaller businesses that cater directly to our sport. Please understand, I am not critizing you or your idea, it makes sound financial sense. For the individual just starting in the sport, I would advise that myself. It is just in my situation, this is the route I would like to go. Bryan

[SHARPS4953]

you can also post on BB to find used parts cheaper. Try making parts you can, like I said I made the nosecap which would have cost $30 to $40. check EBAY, Gunbroker...building it yourself I think you will get a better gun

[Fauch125]

For the stock, if you're niw dealing with original dimension parts, be on the lookout for a sporterized '61 stock, something that has been previously cut down, usually just in front of the lower band. The more character (dings, minor pieces of wood missing, minor cracks) the better the price but more woodworking required. You can splice a new forearm to carbine length. Advantage of this route is that the lock mortise, trigger guard mortice, and buttplate fit are already done. Cutdown stocks come up periodically on ebay, or you can find them through the aformentioned sutlers. On gun auction sites, you can also find sporterized complete rifles, in various condition, and get a few more parts for your build. I bought two junk 1842 muskets, pretty reasonably, and was able to make a full length '42 and a Richmond Cavalry musketoon needing only a couple extra parts and a lot of woodworking. Hope this helps. Also, the Whitacre barrel should pretty much drop in as they are made for original dimensions.

[B-Davis]

I have possibly found an 1861 stock, but my question now is, I have the high hump lock plate. Will this lock plate fit, or does part of the lock mortise need to be cut out? Or am I totally on the wrong track and should I be looking for an 1855 stock. IF the 1861 stock will work, do I need to make any adjustment for the band placement, or do I just need to cut the stock to the right length and the band location will automatically be correct? Bryan

[Rebel Dave]

You will have to make room for the "high Hump" on a 61 stock. Rear Band placement is the same. Rebel Dave

[rachbobo]

So, if I am going to invest that much money anyway, I would rather buy original/American repro. parts. I also am supporting smaller businesses that cater directly to our sport.

I have an original 1861 lock marked Springfield and dated 1862. The internals are in very good shape with light crisp trigger pull. It also comes with original mounting screws and washers.
The lockplate has pitting but is bright and the wording and date are easily seen.
The price is $300 , set a time and date when we can meet at the Cockade Rifles cabin at the Spring Nationals.

Bill Cheek
Cockade Rifles

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Do you have a copy of Paul Davies’ book on the C.S. Richmond Armory? In his book, Paul provides two close-up photos illustrating the inletting for the Model 1855 and 1861 rifle muskets, showing their differences, much of which was solely to accommodate the Model 1855 lock’s Maynard tape primer mechanism. As someone who shoots a Model 1855 Rifle, while I don’t have any problem capping my rifle, others seem to have a lot of trouble trying to cap their 55’s because of the “high hump”, so many prefer the lower hump type if not the 1861 style lock, each of which version there are SAC spec sheets available.

Yes, the 1861 stock will work for a C.S. Richmond, but you will have to re-cut the inletting for the hump as well as the mainspring because the Model 1855 used a shorter upper leg mainspring than the 1861. The “hump” portion of the Model 1855 lock performed the same purpose as the flash shield behind the cone on the “snail” portion of the 1861 breech, which if you are installing an 1861 style barrel but are using the high hump lock-plate, you will have to grind away a portion of the “shield” to make it fit. It would probably be best for you to build the easier M1861 type Richmond until you can examine a M1855 more closely to see these subtler details. The Italians didn’t bother with these "finer" details, and simply altered their design to essentially make their Model 1855 lock match the Model 1861 design changes.

[B-Davis]

So, I can use any M1861 contract plate for building the C.S. Richmond? If this is the case, this may change my plans a bit... I can still use the 1861 stock for this? Sorry for so many questions, first time doing this!

[David Disher 12143]

The Rifle Shoppe has rough castings of the Brass Nose cap you are searching for.

David Disher

[B-Davis]

I have a nose cap, thank you! I appreciate the help though!