shooting the ballard 46 rimfire

[hp gregory]

i thought this would be worth bringing up. anyone shooting the ballard 46 rimifre military rifle with a stock chamber and bore. if so what case, bullet, load etc. i know a lot of the guns are being sleeved and chambered to 45 colt. i have one of these that shoots pretty nice. i thought it would be nice to see if there is away to keep from chopping up a nice original. it would seem to me that a heeled bullet would be all that we would need to get them to shoot. anyone got any ideas. mr holland what say you on the matter.

hp

[Richard Hill]

Mine likes the Lyman 454485 sized to .456, 25 grains 3F Goex, a little filler, and a lot of lube. The cases are 44-40 with the primer pocket filled and then drilled for an off-center .22 short case. It is an excellent shooter.

[Eggman]

A possible alternative is the .44 long brass case from Dixie Gun Works (KA0206). This is made for rimfire with a pocket drilled off center to hold a .22 blank.

[efritz]

H.P.

I've also been looking into this. I have 2 rifles (one sleeved, one still original bore) and a carbine still original bore. I'd like to be able to shoot both originals sometime.
I contacted Moose moulds about a heeled bullet. I was asked to design it, they'd make it. But, I'm no bullet designer. I have an idea, but have no clue as to whether it would fly or not. Hate to have a mould made to find out it key holes or something. I'll talk to Charlie Hahn at the Nat'ls. and get his input. With the help of Al Reihle, the 44 mag and 44 special cases fit in the rifle and 41 mags will work in the carbine. The 41 mags have to be shortened.

The big problem facing the rifle is putting an approx. .457 bullet in a .44 mag cartridge. You can't use dies to seat the bullet so the bullet has to made to fit snugly in the cartridge right out of the mould and the bullet design has to be one that will fly.

In my carbine the hammer has been modified with the spike. The rifle has a spring loaded firing pin. I see others on the BB have suggested using a 44 mag case from Dixie with the .22 insert. Sounds good for those that don't want to alter the hammer.

If anyone has bullet design experience and would like to post something, that would be nice.

We can talk further at the Nat'ls.

[Bob Myers 5238v]

I've been using a 44 special case with 25gr 3f,filler topped off with a RCBS 45-300 flat nose bullet. The bullet has a gass check which fits into the case.

[hp gregory]

i also have two. one 45 colt and a stock gun in pretty nice shape. i would love to be able to come up with something where i could shoot the stock gun as is. i realy hate cuting up nice guns. but then again i realy like shooting so it can be a tough call sometimes between fun and history.
the rifle i am shooting had a rough bore so it wasnt to hard a decision to have bobby sleeve it and chamber it for 45 long colt. i had an idea for a bullet very similiar to a rcbs 44 cal trunicated nose bullet. i found an nei mould that i could modify by cutting off the back to end up with a 235 grain bullet with a trunicated nose. i didnt want to overload the cast frame so i kept the load down to 22 grns of 3f goex and filler. my favorite lube is lens lube and it works great. i normaly like to use a hot primer for black powder so i use a magnum pistol primer.
i find this round very much like an air rifle when shooting it. almost no recoil and they still shoot flat between 50 and 100 yds. this load seems to do pretty good. if we could come upo with a heeled bullet in the 225 to 250 range i think that might bring these old guns to life.

hp

[Jack C., 69th NY]

Great topic of conversation. I am definitely in the camp of those who do not want to modify a collectable, un-messed with Ballard rifle or carbine. Most Ballards have been "gunsmithed" over the past 150 years and 100% originals are not too common today. The Lyman or Ideal 454485 gas check bullet seems to be the best stock mold for those who want to keep the original .46 cal. chambering. It can be finger fit in both 44-40 or 44 mag. The shoulder of the 44-40 gives a better gas seal. The 454485 bullet weighs 250 grains. My thought is that a lighter bullet would cause less pressure and thus be better for the cast Ballard receivers. I am not sure what the weight difference would be for two identical bullets with one having been modified to a gas check design. Keep in mind that Ballard chamber sizes do vary. Just because some 3 band Ballard rifles accept a 44-40 round, not all do. Before you get too deep into this idea, make sure the individual rifle will accept the brass. That may also be true for the .44 magnum case but I am not so sure. Check the 44-40, not all Ballard rifles will chamber that round.

I started toying with using cut down and fireformed 303 Savage brass for the 44 cal Ballards but I never finished my thoughts for that caliber.

I was thinking of speaking with the various custom mold makers about a .454 to .456 gas check bullet along the Elmer Keith design, like the 429421 (.44 cal.) or 454190 (.46 cal.) but modified for a gas check.

I would be willing to enter into a group design / buy of a custom mold in order to avoid re-chambering a collectable Ballard.

Here is an interesting link for cartridge conversions. 44 Ballards are covered but no .46 cal Ballard.
http://castpics.net/subsite/Conversions/default.html

My thoughts for now.:D

[hp gregory]

has anyone with a realy good original bore tried re-chambering their ballard to 45 long colt. this would seem the least destructive way of geting one to shoot. maybe.

hp

[John Holland]

With all due respect to hp, whose friendship I value dearly, "...least destructive..." is destructive nonetheless. The analogy is the same as "She's sort of pregnant...", either she is, or she isn't!

In my Ballard .46 caliber rifle I use a .44-40 case with the Lyman 454485 heeled bullet. If I can scrape together some time later today I'll post the formula that works so well for me.

John

[Jack C., 69th NY]

hp & John,
I have chambered a .46 Ballard to .45 Long Colt using a good original bore and it works fine for me. You can use an assortment of available .454 bullets. That being said, I have only done this with Ballards that have had their collectability destroyed by 150 years of gunsmithing, some good, some bad. Restoring a "sporterized", non-original rifle, with a good bore to its former 3 band configuration with a 45 LC chamber, in my book, can only increase the value of the rifle. You are bringing the rifle back to life, to do what it was intended to do... shoot. My 2 cents worth. :)

[hp gregory]

john the purpose of my note was to maybe find a way to get the good out of the single shots without doing harm. like so many of the current guns we shoot they had to crawl a little before they took off running. if you think back way before my time at the way some of the carbines were shot its amazing how far things have come. its good to pool our knowlege for the good of the sport. just look at the evil smoothbore (the devils gun) and how far that has come in such a short time. i realy love the threads that realy get into the finer points of geting a gun to shoot. i think it makes things that much more fun. im looking forward to hearing your wealth of info on the ballard.

hp

[John Holland]

Shooting the Ballard Rifle Using the Original.46 Ballard Chamber

Hereare my thoughts on re-chambering a .46 Ballard Rifle to .45 LC, and why I feel itis not necessary along with how I shoot it myself.

1 – The original Ballard Rifle in .46 caliber has a borewhich is a gain twist and is rather unforgiving in what it will digest foraccurate shooting. The best bullet in my opinion is from a Lyman mould #454485.This is an old projectile originally designed for the early .45 Long Colt witha rebate at the base for a gas check. The gas check provision is veryimportant, which I'll explain shortly. In casting I have used pure lead andslightly harder than dead soft with virtually no variation in group size. Thisbullet comes out of my mould at .456”/.457” in diameter, weighs 254 gr. in softlead and 256 gr. in hard lead, and is 0.700” in overall length. I fire thebullet unsized, and lubed by nose dipping in GPS lube which I get from Mike& Brenda Rouch. I wipe the bore with a patch and Ballistol between events.

2 - For a .46 Ballard cartridge I use a .44-40 cartridgecase. It will fire form to the chamber easily, as it is very close to beginwith.

3 - Powder charge. I have found that 24 to 26 grains of 2FFGGoex works very well. I would start with 24 gr. and work up to 26 gr. to seewhere your tightest group is. I also experimented with the same charges of 3FFGGoex and found the groups to open up a bit more than I cared for. Try both tosee how they work in your rifle. The rifle will decide for you! The reason Iadvocate a lighter bullet (it is about 240-250 gr.) and a lighter powder chargeis because the frames on Ballards are cast and very prone to cracking underpressure. That is why one team has cracked more than one frame on their Ballards.They are using a heavy bullet and a heavy charge of Swiss. One of those teammembers and I had quite a discussion about this a while back. He says you haveto have a heavy bullet and push it fast to get it to be stable at 100 yards.Not so, because at one of the recent Single Shot Team Matches I broke all 5 ofthe 100 yard tiles myself in 6 shots, and I called the one that missed....Idrifted off at 3:00 just as the round went off. One of our competitors on yetanother team was experimenting with heavy bullets, so I warned him aboutcracking the receiver. It wasn't a week later that he wrote back and told me hehad cracked the receiver on his Ballard. The cracks always appear in the squarecorner of the clearance cut in the frame at the back end of the breech block. Ibelieve the reason for this is the heavy recoil causes the block to move backwardsand hit the back edge of the frame, which in turn causes a crack to form in thesquare corners. I have seen cracks 3/4 of an inch long running down both sidesof the frame because of this.

4 - Loading: Once the case is fire formed all you have to dois neck size the case for about 1/10th of an inch in depth, using a .44-40 necksizer. This sizes the ID of the case mouth to .427", which is exactly thediameter of the rebate at the base of the Lyman #454485 bullet. I drop thepowder charge into the case, top it off with about 10-12 gr. of white corn mealso that it is just about level with the case mouth. Cream of Wheat will workjust fine, too. Don't ask me why I use white corn meal, it’s just something Istarted with when I began shooting black powder cartridge matches at the age of16. Most likely it was what Mom had in the cupboard! I then hand seat thebullet into the case mouth, which just slightly compresses the load. It isgenerally a tight fit in the case because the rebate and case mouth are thesame diameter at .427”. I then then give it a light tap on the top flat of thebullet nose with a light plastic mallet to seat it tight. The finishedcartridge is long, and completely fills the chamber. The bullet touches thechamber mouth right at the rifling. That way there is no “jump” to the rifling.If I have a live round in the chamber at the end of an event I have to fire it,because if I try to extract the cartridge it will leave the bullet in thechamber.

I hope this will help you see another avenue to shooting anoriginal Ballard Rifle rather than re-chambering a collectible original arm. Ialso agree with Jack Conway’s approach to restoring a Ballard that has been “gunsmithedto death”, you aren’t doing anything other than making it useable once more.

So, that’s what I do, and if nothing else it will give yousomething to chew on!

John Holland

[Joe Plakis, 9575V]

I would think the least destructive would be to have Bobby Hoyt or another barrel maker just make you a new barrel.

[hp gregory]

thanks john for taking time to post your info. as always it helps greatly to keep us on the straight and narrow. its always better to get information from those who have been there and done that. it would also be good to hear from people who shoot other single shots. i think it would stir up more interest. the 17th will soon have a second single shot team and 2 more repeater teams. this should help stop the shrinkage at the nationals.

hp

[John Holland]

hp,

Thank you for the kind words but it is the accomplished shooters like yourself, who share freely of their knowledge, who help the rest of us enjoy the sport!

John

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

If you go to a hoyt barrel try the round ball. In the Skirmish Line, one of the last ones has a dsitinguished shooter using this. If you can find a Merrimac or Brown, you can use the Brevort converter and not destroy the action at all. Good luck.

[Steve Blancard]

Reviving a really old thread.

I appreciate the info provided here and just thought I'd share what I've been doing. As described earlier in this thread, I soldered a brass plug in the primer pocket of .44 mag brass. Then drilled an offset primer pocket to take .22 starter blanks as the rimfire primer. I've not yet located a 454485 mold, but I may order a custom mold from Accurate Molds. Just as a trial, I cut down a 400gr .45-70 bullet at both ends, then cut a heel on it. Its still a but heavy at 315 gr. I'm also going the try the Lee 456-220-1R mold. It is light at around 220gr., but that's ok - no need to stress the old Ballard. All I need to do is cut a heel on them.

What loads are you guys using? any advice on other bullets?

Thanks,
Steve

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

Words of wisdom: Use the very lightest weight bullet that works. From round balls to conical, tapered base, original style CW revolver bullets.

[efritz]

To start, heed the words of wisdom. Light loads light bullets.

I have had what I?ll call 50% success. Bullet shot very well at 50y. Key hold at 100y. Shooting an RCBS 45-300 gas check bullet (minus the copper gas check). Sized 458 with SPG. 26 gns 1 1/2 Swiss. Then dipped in my concocted lube. All loads in 44 mag case. Produced a 1 1/2? 10 shot group benched. Note no filler required. 26 gns 1 1/2 Swiss fills er up. The slow burning 1 1/2 helps to cancel out the 300 gn bullet and 26 gns powder. Someone suggested that it wasn?t traveling fast enough at 100y to stabilize. I
have also had success using a 457 RB in my 45LC. But 100y on a Windy Fort Shenendoah day was frightening. Otherwise shot well.

note in pic that I subtracted the one wide shot to get the 1 1/2? group.

[Steve Blancard]

I made the above rounds while waiting for the sporting rifle to arrive. I made these based on the seller saying it was a .46. That was a mistake. It arrived the other day. Turns out it's a .44. Those cases will work, but shortened .44-40 brass is a better fit to the chamber. I already had a 218gr heel bullet mold that will work nicely. So yesterday I converted five .44-40 cases to rimfire. Tonight I loaded up all ten cases. Those made from .44mag hold 25gr of Old E 2F, the 44-40 based cases hold 27gr. I hope to get to the range in the next couple days to test them.

[efritz]

Can I assume that inserting the cartridge in chamber is utmost important in locating the .22 so the striker hits it?

[Steve Blancard]

Can I assume that inserting the cartridge in chamber is utmost important in locating the .22 so the striker hits it?

Indeed, that does contribute to reliable ignition!

I took the Ballard to the range today. I made a short video of the adventure.

https://youtu.be/aq3CqFQd36E

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

Steve, I enjoyed watching your video. You have a very a nice civilian model. Nice group too. Watch out, you may become an addict.

Hello, my name is Bruce. I am a former Ballard addict. It was hard for me to let go of the 35 military rifles and carbines I had.

[Steve Blancard]

Thanks Bruce. I'm primarily a rolling block guy. But this caught my eye, so I grabbed it for something different. Tonight I started converting 10 more shortened 44-40 cases to rimfire. Great fun :D

[Steve Blancard]

Since I'm in the process of making 10 more .44 long rimfire cases, I made a two part video on the process I've come up with. I'm sure there are otherways, perhaps better ways. But this works for me.

https://youtu.be/MeQcElAGCBE

https://youtu.be/Fxz9s9kjflI

[Muley Gil]

Thanks Bruce. I'm primarily a rolling block guy. But this caught my eye, so I grabbed it for something different. Tonight I started converting 10 more shortened 44-40 cases to rimfire. Great fun :D


You wouldn't happen to have a spare RB in .32-20, do you?

[Steve Blancard]

You wouldn't happen to have a spare RB in .32-20, do you?

I have one, a #2 rifle. But not to spare, its too good of a shooter to let go - sorry :-(

[Muley Gil]

Thanks for responding. The search goes on.;)