Pritchett bullet mould

[hwaugh]

I know we have a number of talented mould makers in our wonderful organization, but is there anyone making a Pritchett bullet mould for an original Enfield .577 rifle? I would even entertain trying a paper patched ball (outside N-SSA shooting). Thanks in advance for your help.

[StonewallSharpeson]

I don't have a solution for you, but I will be keep an eye on this thread, as this also greatly interests me.
So, some comments:
Are you talking about a P53 or P58 Enfield? Apparently the rifling twists are different, and thus they require different weight bullets, etc. I shoot Lyman .575 "Old Style"s out of my ArmiSport P53, but they usually cast too large [they average about .577, the same diameter as lands :(] and I can't fire many before it becomes impossible to load. Once lost the head of my ramrod that way. Also, I'm not the best shot, but I found the produced accuracy to be rather disappointing.
So I have also been looking for a Pritchett mold for some time, but they are certainly expensive, uncommon, and often not the correct diameter or weight. You would have to get a mold custom made. So here's what I can tell you that I've learned on this matter:
Apparently, original Pritchett's were .550, 500 grains, and had a wooden or iron plug, which forced skirt expansion and allowed ease of loading. Most of us who shoot recreationally can't do plugs, so a solution that can be found is an un-plugged .569 Pritchett. Many different diagrams exist for this bullet (I like this one: http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b166/RobDeans/Deans-PritchettBullet.jpg), but I'm not sure whether they are meant to be shot from the '53 or the '58. I have contacted several makers, and they are either not in business anymore, or will only do a custom mold, which will run you about $200.

[BADSHOT]

This here is Rascus, I ain't sure we have Pritchett mold but I will check, the last time the health inspector was here at the house, I think they said we had that on some of Daisy Mae's Brownies.
I will get back to you as soon as possible. As far as paper patches-we can't seem to keep enough around, the bathroom is always out, sorry.

[Maillemaker]

I had run across a web article not too long ago where the shooter had made plugs out of Bondo. Cool idea - if you had a little mold made - imagine a tiny muffin pan made out of plastic - you could probably machine the pockets into a nylon cutting board - you could squeegee Bondo across the face of the board and fill in hundreds of divots and when they harden just pop them out like little ice cubes.

Steve

[robertdeans72]

Hi there,

There is no one that makes an "of the shelf" mould for a Pritchett bullet. I had mine made by Brook's Moulds in Montana. Excellent product...

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b166/RobDeans/Bullet Making/6003-1.jpg

For some information on shooting these, go here http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/ and search for "Pritchett". There are many threads and I don't know of anywhere that has as much information on this bullet (or indeed as many people shooting them).

Rob

[StonewallSharpeson]

robertdeans72,
Do you have the specs on that bullet? How well does it shoot, and what do you shoot it out of? Do you use plugs? And, if you don't mind, how much did it cost?
Thanks,
Will Thoms

[robertdeans72]

Will,

The diagram you linked to in your first post is mine...... (from my photobucket account)..... Its one of those "custom moulds" you also refered to. As far as shooting goes, it shoots better than the historical requirement of a Figure of Merit of 14" or 15" at 500yds. It will shoot (extrapolated) a 500yd FoM of 11". That translates into this....

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b166/RobDeans/Shooting Pics/P5310652gr.jpg




http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b166/RobDeans/Bullet Making/OSPritchettMkII.jpg

I have a second base plug that is shallow.
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b166/RobDeans/Bullet Making/OSPritchettMkIIShallowBase.jpg

Both are adjustable for height of bullet. I shoot it out of a PH P53 and a JRA P60 Army Short Rifle, albeit with a Hoyt seven groove, 1-60 barrel. I have yet to work up my PH Naval Rifle. I don't use plugs........If I may, I would really encourage you to visit http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/ as the amount of info there is too great to reproduce here...

Rob

[Maillemaker]

I like that spreadsheet. Can I get a copy of it? What sort of target do you use that you can trasnfer XY coordinates?

Steve

[robertdeans72]

Hi Steve,

You can get a copy,.... Just need your email... As for the target, it is just a piece of "inch grid" flip-chart paper with a piece of black construction paper glued to it, for an aiming mark... Much faster than measuring each X and Y with a ruler....

Rob

[Dan Mastin]

If you really want to get as close to original as possible, College Hill Arsenal has an original pritchett mold for sale. It appears to be complete and in very good shape. I think it's 26 bore.<br><br>Dan M

[hwaugh]

Rob, Did you shoot this bullet with or without paper patching? What kind of lube did you use?

Thanks,

[robertdeans72]

Harry,

These are used with the historical style cartridge. So yes, with the paper around them... The powder cylinder snaps off at the muzzle....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNIt8RvGP5M

These were never intended to be fired without the lubed paper around them.... Absolutely the fastest loading historical rifle-musket cartridge....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNrQs74z0lg

Lube is garden variety beeswax/shortening....

Rob

[hwaugh]

Rob,

Great video...you really have gone to the next level in shooting the Enfields. I can't thank you enough for sharing this information with myself and all those who follow the N-SSA. Again thanks and a job well done!

[Maillemaker]

Cool videos!

Here is a nice article on authentic enfield cartridges, as well as standard .58 cartridges:

http://cartridgetubes.com/Authentic_Cartridges.html

I think it would be cool to authentic cartridges in N-SSA competition.

Steve

[robertdeans72]

Thanks for the kind words,

I understand that you can't use these cartridges in your competitions, pity. I also understand that in your "sister" orginization (I believe its the ACWSA), you can.

Cheers,

Rob

[medic302]

what caliber pritchett are you using? the .550 or the .568?

[Blair]

Excellent videos!
But, there seems to be somethings that are un-answered?

[Blair]

medic302,

I think that is an excellent question!
I would also like to know the thickness of the paper used in making up the patch and cartridge tubes. And if there were a base plug used?
Getting some kind of a finished score might also help?
Like what were you shooting at, distance... and did you hit it?
Just a thought,

[medic302]

thanks blair, i believe he mentioned in the video that he was shooting at a man sized target 50 yards away.
i'd also like to know what mix of beeswax/crisco he is using and what his benched group sizes are. i'd also like to know his powder charge and the construction of his cartridges. they seem to tear off beautifully!

[Blair]

medic302,

I too am very impressed by what I see on the videos. I am not saying or suggesting the method of loading the Pritchett bullet is incorrect or wrong.
It just seems to me that there are some questions that need to be addressed.
Bullet dia., powder charge, paper thickness, base plug, lube (in that cold climate in the video), gun maker used in the video, and bore dia., target size, distance, score etc, etc. I am sure there maybe some other questions I have not addressed?

[robertdeans72]

It just seems to me that there are some questions that need to be addressed.
Bullet dia., powder charge, paper thickness, base plug, lube (in that cold climate in the video), gun maker used in the video, and bore dia., target size, distance, score etc, etc.

Blair,
Are you going to ask the guy who made the post? If you do, I'm sure that he'd be more than willing to share.

Rob

[medic302]

i will, robertdeans would you mind sharing that information with us? i'd like to know for my own enfield.

[robertdeans72]

Medic302, happy to answer...

Most of the information is found in the spreadsheet (and surrounding post) found on the first page of this thread.. The other information is as follows...

Paper /Thickness - .003 100% Rag Vellum paper. I used 100% Rag (tracing) paper at first but found that the lube really soaked into it and I thought that maybe this affected accuracy. I switched to the 100% Rag Vellum as this has a slightly denser finish that doesn't soak up the lube near as much. Accuracy improved.
Bore diameter - .577
Target size - Unsure of what was meant here, the rapid shooting was discussed, with (obviously) less emphasis on tight groupings. The 20 round application on the spreadsheet was shot on inch grid paper... The target was 48" x 36" with two aiming marks
Score - No "score" in the rapid shooting. Shot for time.... The 20 round application was for grouping so I don't know what kind of score one would derive from this...
Lube - I start with 50/50 and this had an extra bit of shortening in it (a table spoon in a fist sized jar) for winter shooting.

Rob

[medic302]

thank you very much, if you don't mind could you explain how you made your catridges? also, as a paper patched myself, i would guess that the paper was sticking to your bullets when you were using the 100%rag tracing paper. which would explain the degrade in accuracy.

[robertdeans72]

Medic302,

You are most welcome. If I may defer to this for the way I make my cartridges.... They are not completely historical in construction but they are 100% accurate in method of use..... In regards to the tracing paper, I was getting fairly regular flyers and thought that that lube saturated paper might be the cause.... The vellum, while more expensive seemed to reduce the instance of odd flying rounds dramatically...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZXLv5u1JSA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_pOUN3VnCo

Hope this helps...

Rob

[Blair]

Rob,

Thanks,

My best,
Blair

[Maillemaker]

Boy they sure do make a mess to shoot - and not one easily picked up after, either.

Steve

[medic302]

rob, thanks! those are great videos! one more question, why did you choose the .563 bullet over the .568?

[robertdeans72]

Blair,

You are most welcome.

Medic302,

.003 paper x 4 layers = .012 + .563(4) bullet = .575(6) total diameter for a .577 bore. Paper thickness was the driving factor.

Cheers,
Rob

[Blair]

Rob,

It was the lack of uniformity in paper thickness that caused the Brits to reduce the size of the bullet from .563 to .550.

One must also consider that both bullets dia. were paper patched with a base plug added before it was placed within the outer paper cartridge tube. The outer cartridge tube also carried the lube, which helped to keep the fowling soft in the bore.
What you have done and shown here is great! And like you say, it is not a period accurate method. But it shows that it can work for this dia. bullet.
Again, I thank you for all your hard work
Blair

[medic302]

rob, that's what i figured. thank you!

[robertdeans72]

medic302,

I should have said ".003 paper x 4 thicknesses (two wraps of the bullet) =.012......."

Not "4 layers". But I think you got the point...

Rob

[medic302]

rob,
lol, yeah from my experience paper patching long range bullets i know that three wraps doesn't work very well. so i assumed you ment two wraps.

in your experience, how is the fouling management? i.e. does the paper patching seem to wipe some fouling out with each shot? i know historically with the .568 round it's been stated that after 10-14 shots it became difficult to load.

[medic302]

hence the switch to the .550 bullet.

[Pat in Virginia]

Harry, talk to Steve at Steve Brooks Molds, 406-782-5114. I believe he recently made a Pritchett bullet mould suitable for a paper patched .577 bullet. He probably based it on this bullet mould he makes. http://www.brooksmoulds.com/bullets2.php It's a paper patch .450 for a Sharps.

I think Steve will work to any reasonable bullet profile you give him. If you need help with that for a British Pritchett let me know. I have C.H. Roads book on the soldiers firearms of the period 1850-1864 and it has bullet dimensions and sketches for a number of different style Minies. Another approach would be to tell Steve to make a PP like the one for the Sharps only make it 530 grains and for a .577 bore and let him figure the rest (if he will). If I am correct about Steve making a Pritchett mould recently maybe that will satisfy you, but make sure the diameter is right for you bore when paper patched.

You should know the thickness of the patching paper you plan to use or let him suggest a patching paper he knows so the bullet when patched will be just right for the diameter of your bore. Do you know your bore diameter? I find the diameters of my bores by using bullets sized .001" appart and seeing which one just goes and which one won't as I insert them in increasing diameter gently into the bore.

Steve, doesn't work cheep. He'll proabably want at least $230 for such a mould. The above is a link to a 45-70 bullet that is Pritchett like which he makes. I believe you can specify your own dimensions within reason and I'm pretty sure he is capable of making some pretty big bullets, so cost may be your only problem.

It might be you could get a group purchase going, but Steve would probably want up-front money. I think a number of folks might be interested in a Pritchett mould if it were of the correct British dimensions, i.e., like the British ammunition for the P53 Enfield. But let me say this about the British Pritchett: It was swaged not cast and in the profile in Roads' book the base of the hollow based bullet was rounded from the hollow to the exterior, not flat. I'm not sure you would want to do that with a cast bullet.

Alternatively, Mike Owsiak (856-596-0177, in the evening, $120 I think) makes a repro bullet mould for the Confederate Gardner bullet which was very superior at longer ranges than the standard Minie due to its much improved ballistic profile. I had Mike make me such a mould with three bases (1st included in mould price, 2nd & 3rd $25 each - full cone, truncated cone, no cone=flat base).

It's my understanding that the British ammunition was saved for the sharpshooters in the CSA armies and not issued to the regular troops.



Pat in Virginia

[robertdeans72]

Pat,

Brook's Moulds,...... Yup,..... See post #5 of this thread......

Good points about paper thickness and working backwards from there......

medic302,

Sorry about not getting back to you earlier. Must have missed the post. Fouling management is good with 50/50 lube. I recently shot 50 rounds with no difficulty in loading whatsoever. Now, accuracy is best achieved with a more regular wiping regimen.....
Rob

[Maillemaker]

It's my understanding that the British ammunition was saved for the sharpshooters in the CSA armies and not issued to the regular troops.

It seems some of the British ammunition was broken down and re-rolled in shorter cartridges so as to fit in US-style cartridge boxes. In February of 1864 the Confederacy mandated that all ammunition be manufactured in the British style. Here is the order:

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/firearms/british/enfield/cartridge09.htm


C.S. Central Laboratory, (Ordn.)
Macon, Ga., Feb. 9, 1864.

It has been recently ordered by the Chief of Ordnance that the only patter(n)s of cartridge to be hereafter used with muzzle loading rifled small arms shall be that known as the English pattern of Enfield cartridge.

Here is an excellent article on the subject:

http://www.cartridgetubes.com/Authentic_Cartridges.html

Steve

[Pat in Virginia]

Steve,

Neat stuff for anyone thinking about making their own Pritchett bullet cartridges in the British manner. By the way did you know there were about 4 cuts in the PP paper that ran parallel to the long axis of the bullet. They were to help the bullet shed the paper immediately on leaving the bore; otherwise accuracy went down the tubes.


Pat

[Maillemaker]

Neat stuff for anyone thinking about making their own Pritchett bullet cartridges in the British manner. By the way did you know there were about 4 cuts in the PP paper that ran parallel to the long axis of the bullet. They were to help the bullet shed the paper immediately on leaving the bore; otherwise accuracy went down the tubes.

Yup, and you can see why this kind of bullet probably will never fly for N-SSA competition.

There is a video of a fellow on YouTube shooting semi-authentic Enfield cartridges. He uses Scotch tape to hold some of the tubes together, but other than that it is a reasonble approximation. Also his lube that he dips the end of the cartridge in is far too runny for a period recipie.

In any case, when he shoots them, the paper patch shreds and turns to confetti. If we used these at a skirmish it would look like it snowed, and it would be very difficult to clean up, short of one of those leaf sucker tools maybe.

Here is part one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZXLv5u1JSA

Here is part two:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_pOUN3VnCo

Steve

[robertdeans72]

Hi Steve,
Interesting videos

If I may,...

" is far too runny for a period recipie...."

How are you certain that the lube is too runny? What is the period recipe you refer to?

Rob

[Maillemaker]

From here:

http://cartridgetubes.com/Authentic_Cartridges.html

In August 1857 it was directed that the lubricating mixture for the Enfield rifle was in future to consist of five parts of beeswax and one of tallow instead of five parts of tallow and one of beeswax and in April 1859 in consequence of complaints of the difficulty experienced in loading this rifle during the Indian mutiny the diameter of the bullet having enlarged from the incrustation of a white deposit occasioned it is said by the acids of the fatty matter of the lubrication an entire change of the ammunition for arms of the Enfield 577 bore pattern was ordered viz--
-1st. The bullet to be .55 in diameter and 1.09 in. in length, instead of .568 in. in diameter and 1.05 in length.
-2nd. The lubricating mixture to be beeswax, instead of beeswax and tallow.
-3rd. The outer envelope of paper which contains the bullet to be fastened to the inner envelope or bag which contains the powder by a strip of gummed paper, instead of the two being twisted together beyond the stiff cylinder of the powder bag, to facilitate tearing off the end of the cartridge.

(From the "Text Book on the Theory of the Motion of Projectiles", War Office, Great Britain, London, 1869)

I made a batch of 1:3 tallow/beeswax and it is a very waxy lube - far moreso than I use for N-SSA competition and more than what you see scraped off the fellows cartridge as he sticks it in the muzzle of his rifle. Here is a picture of that lube: http://i.imgur.com/sBh3x.jpg

1:5 would be tighter still, and of course pure beeswax tighter still.

Essentially, a cartridge dipped in such a lube would turn the bullet end of the cartridge into waxed paper.

The video author says his lube is, "50/50 mix of shortening and beeswax with a splash of olive oil.", which will make a much looser lube.

Now I am not seeing it in the video now, but I thought I remembered in these videos a shot of him sticking the cartridge in the barrel and it scraping off the lube in a similar manner to when I load my N-SSA balls. I don't see it now though so maybe I am misremembering, or maybe it was in another thread somewhere.

Steve

[Blair]

Just a thought here on my part.
Learn what tallow actually is. It is quite a bit stuffer than the fatty tissues that are rendered down to makes up lard (beef or pig).
If you don't, or have never butcher your own beef... try going to a good Butcher Shop, they can show you.
Tallow is somewhat close to being the same consistency to a bar of Ivory soap than it does to Crisco.

[Maillemaker]

I bought my mutton tallow for the experiment from Dixie Gun Works:

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=3686

You can see a picture of it here, along with my beeswax and the lube I made with them:

http://i.imgur.com/sBh3x.jpg

I found the tallow to be looser than Crisco.

Steve

[robertdeans72]

Pat,

I'd like to say thanks for the exposure of the vidoes you mention. They are mine and reflect my continuing journey into shooting the Pritchett bullet from Enfield Rifles. The only reason I asked about the lube recipie was due to the fact that you mentionned it as being "too runny" and that somehow would make the cartridge less real or functional. I should think that a period recpie of 5 tallow to one beeswax would be rather more runny. I can't attest to that as I don't use tallow. I can assure you that the lube does not soak into the paper and that it does not flake off like was found with the harder period recipie of 5 beeswax to one tallow (CH Roads, p148) I test my lube based on rubbing it with my finger and seeing how much grease I can get to smear on the surface of the cooled batch. I cannot plunge a finger into it but can easily scrape it with a fingernail. I would be happy to answer other questions about my lube choice or anything else about the videos, if there are any.

Cheers,
Rob

[Maillemaker]

I should think that a period recpie of 5 tallow to one beeswax would be rather more runny.

Bear in mind that this recipe of 5 parts tallow to 1 part beeswax was changed in 1857 to 5 parts beeswax to 1 part tallow. And in 1859 they switched to beeswax entirely.

Also, I may be misremembering a video. The video I was remembering showed an Enfield cartridge being inserted into the muzzle and you could clearly see the lube sloughing off as it frequently does with N-SSA lubed bullets with their soft lubes. But going back through your videos, I don't see that scene.

Did you have another video that showed the loading of the cartridge (close-up)? If not, I have mis-attributed the runny lube to you. Sorry.

Excellent videos, also.

Steve

[robertdeans72]

Steve,

Yes the change in lubes was rather comprehensive untill beeswax became the standard for the rest of the Enfield's era. In regards to the runny lube, all I meant was a response to the fact that it was mentioned that mine was too runny for a period recipie yet you mentioned three, one of which, I would put in a category of "runnier".... That's all.

As for a video,... maybe this one is the one you are thinking about...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNIt8RvGP5M

There is obviously some lube that is "peeled" off the cartridge as the lube is on the paper rather than in the paper... But generally speaking, there isn't that much. The warmer the lube when lubing, the less excess there is.

Cheers, Rob

[medic302]

PM sent rob.

[Maillemaker]

Yes the change in lubes was rather comprehensive untill beeswax became the standard for the rest of the Enfield's era. In regards to the runny lube, all I meant was a response to the fact that it was mentioned that mine was too runny for a period recipie yet you mentioned three, one of which, I would put in a category of "runnier".... That's all.

As for a video,... maybe this one is the one you are thinking about...

I think that was the video, and watching it now, there's not nearly as much lube sloughing off as I thought I remembered.

Anyway, since it wasn't even your video I was remembering, forget what I said about your lube being too runny. :oops: :oops: :oops:

Steve

[WV SCROUNGER]

HERE is an oldie ! It was marketed by DIXIE GUNWORKS in years gone by....358 grains, diameter .560 lenght .830 The bullet is flat based...no plug or skirt...

[John Holland]

That was their replica of the Starr Carbine bullet.

[WV SCROUNGER]

Hmmm.....thanks John

[iron brigade]

Love the video's! please continue to produce more!:D

[George Gompf]

Harry,
I am making a run of molds in preparation for the nationals next month. I can cut a regular minie mold without grease rings for you. It will have the more elongated nose than that of the mold shown in the photo.
You will have to be specific about what size you want. The original muskets are notorious for being oversize. I usually recommend a.580 and size it down to the diameter you need for your musket.

If you need a push through sizing die that operates with a standard reloading press, I can provide one of those as well.

Molds are $175 with handles
Dies are $25

Shipping will be about $8 for the mold. Shipping for a die only is $3.00, no charge if added to a mold. If you are interested, let me know.

As mentioned before, I am not aware of many people using this mold. If you want to shoot patched round balls, (non N-SSA) I have shot a patched .575 round ball with great results. I used 30 grains of 3-F at 25 yards, 45 grains at 50 yards and 60 grains at 100 yards.


George Gompf
Tennessee Bullet Molds
tnmolds@gmail.com

[robertdeans72]

Harry,
... I usually recommend a.580 and size it down to the diameter you need for your musket.

Just remember, this bullet is shot paper patched so find the paper you will use (100% rag between .002 and .003 is historical) and then work backward from there. Your Pritchett should be about .565 +/-.... Overly sizing pritchett bullets is not quite the same as burton style bullets as lead is pushed all the way to the bottom edge. With Burton style bullets, the grease grooves allow for somewhere for the lead to go when squeezed. When sizing Pritchetts, without these spaces to fill, the lead is smeared all the way to the bottom where it creates a rough edged based and the problems that creates....

Just some thoughts...

Rob

[Smosin]

After reading all this information, I got motivated a few weeks ago and decided to try and make up some Pritchett-type paper cartridges to shoot with my .577" cal Pedersoli 3 band Enfield rifle musket. I was reasonably sucessful. Mr. Kaboskey cast up some .568" diameter minie bullets, and I used those, wrapped more or less per English regs. I used a 16# notepaper for the powder cylinder/inner wrapper, and 9# 25% rag paper for the outer wrap. This 9# 25% rag is the same paper I routinely use for paper patching when loading my BPCR. It mikes to .002" thick. Combined with the .568" minie, and two wraps with the paper, I ended up with a .576" diameter cartridge. This is exactly the same diameter I've been sizing my regular Lyman minies when shooting this rifle. I used some cotton thread for tying off the cartridges.
I dipped the bullet end of the cartridges in warmed SPG lube up to end of the cylinder section, and set them aside to dry.

I have to say I was totally awed at the range by this cartridge. It was easy to load, although I tore off the powder end, rather than biting it. The paper-patched bullets slid right into the bore without any more than normal effort, even with no cleaning between shots. The accuracy at 50 yards was outstanding, with, after a couple of fouling shots, all rounds in the black, even a couple in the 10 ring, from a standing position. The rear sight was set at the lowest setting. Next time I will try the load at 100 yards and see how it works at that range. These were loaded with 60 grains of Graf's 3fg powder over a 460 grain .568" minie, with RWS caps.
Just like when shooting paper patched bullets in blackpowder cartridge rifles, the paper, essentially a sabot, immediately separated from the bullet on exiting the bore and fluttered to the ground in little pieces.
Since I don't have a Pritchett bullet mould, I will have to carry on with my .568" sized minies for now.
The pritchett-style bullets seemed to show much less fouling of the bore afterwards than what I usually see using unpatched-but-lubed minies. In my experience, the same holds true when shooting BPCR, where I see much less fouling shooting paper patched bullets than when I shoot grease grooved bullets.
Just my 2 cents!

[robertdeans72]

Nice! Good job on "making it work" with a burton minie.... Any pictures? Tearing open the cartridge was "The Drill" from 1859 onwards rather than biting it off in the teeth which was the original drill from 1855...

Rob