Geman made breechloaders?

[Steve Weems]

I am reading a book by William Chalfant called "Dangerous Passage" which is about the Mexican War era along the Santa Fe Trail.
In it he recounts the Battle of Coon Creek between the indians and a goup of recruits for the unit known as the Santa Fe Battalion.
The Soldiers had been issued what is described as German made breechloaders and were a prime reason for the repulse of an*
extremely large group of indians. The breech loaders had been issued several weeks earlier at Ft. Leavenworth and the battle
took place on June 17, 1848. He cites a manuscript in the Kansas Historical Collections 10 (1907-1908 )authored by James H.
Birch titled " The Battle of Coon Creek". These breechloaders were of a carbine size.

I had not heard that the U.S. forces had tried a foreign made breechloader at this time. Anyone heard of a Geman made*
Breechloader being issued at this time--if so maybe they carried over to the Civil War.

[B-Davis]

I am not sure, but there is the chance that he could be referring to the Dryse needle gun. The rifle is listed as being put into Prussian service in 1848. I am only aware of there only being rifles though. I guess there is the chance there were carbines, but as I said, I am only aware of rifles.
I am sure some one Like John Holland or Southern Sr. will be able to further elobrate or correct me if I am wrong, they are both quite knowledgeable!

[johnefelts]

Ive read the same scenero and do not find anywhere that described German made, however my guess would be the Hall Rifle or the first issue Sharps.

[John Holland]

It appears the reference used by Chalfont came from this:

Battle of Coon Creek
"James H. Birch, Interview"
"Kinsley Graphic October, 1907"

"....As good fortune planned it, there had arrived at the fort from Germany a consignment of breech-loading carbines. They could be loaded and fired five times in a minute, and being a cavalry arm, our little squad was armed with them. They were fearful weapons. Loaded with an ounce ball, it emerged as a slug and for four hundred yards held up its force. In the hands of these backwoods boys, who had been raised on horseback with guns in their hands, they soon became a toy and a delight. We were the only soldiers in the Mexican war that were armed with breech loading guns...."

It is a bit difficult to believe.
JDH

[RaiderANV]

Me thinks really old age and fading memory........remembers these German breechloaders

[Jim_Burgess_2078V]

Of course at the time of the Mexican War (and the Civil War for that matter) "Germany" as we know it today did not exist. There were separate German states (Prussia, Bavaria, etc.). The reference to Germany is possibly in error, a misinterpretation of handwriting from the original source or maybe there is another locality over here known as "Germany." There is a Germantown in Maryland as well as outside Fairfax, Va. From the description that John quoted, I'm inclined to think they had Hall or North carbines.
Jim Burgess, 15th CVI

[Southron Sr.]

Well, that quote in that passage that John posted: "We were the only soldiers in the Mexican War armed with breechloading guns..." is incorrect as Hall Rifles were used by other American units in that war.

The Dryse Needle Rifles had been around for a few years in 1848, and it is not beyond the realm of possibility that some were shipped to the United States for sale and perhaps testing.

What caught my interest was the description of loading and shooting the arms:

"Loaded with an once ball it emerged as a slug..."

The writer could actually be describing a Dryse Needle Rifle because it used an "goose egg shaped" lead slug that was loaded in the cartridge. The slug was indeed swaged down a tad as it entered the rifling of the bore when the arm when the Needle Rifle was fired. So, the slug did leave the muzzle in a slightly different shape than when it was loaded.

One thing for certain, the "arms business" has always been an "international business" and in the 1840's a lot of arms were indeed imported from Europe to the United States.

[rachbobo]

[QUOTE=Southron Sr.;28272]Well, that quote in that passage that John posted: "We were the only soldiers in the Mexican War armed with breechloading guns..." is incorrect as Hall Rifles were used by other American units in that war.

One of my Hall Rifles has a carved inscription on the underside of the Butt Stock, it reads

GEN TWIGGS DIV MEX

It is a smoothbore in flintlock. From what I have read abour Hall Rifles, after the 2nd Seminole War many had to be re-stocked. Mine is one of them.
Halls also had a tapered bore causing the round ball to swage down smaller towards the muzzle. Both the rifles and smooth bore versions I have are like this.
The Rifle Shoppe shipped the parts I ordered for my next Hall so I will be busy as soon as they get here working on my 4th.

Bill Cheek
Cockade Rifles