1854 Lorenz, Type II, .54 cal, Two banded model

[poppi66]

I have had this weapon on display for over 50 years, in my home. I am hoping to sell it but first I want to know more about it. Because it is a shorter model and only has two bands could it be a Jaeger version because it has an octagonal to round barrel? Where can I get info with this much detail. It is missing its' front band and I have no ramrod or sling for it. There are no markings on the lock, minimum (1) on the visible barrel but many on the hidden side of the barrel. I'd appreciate any infor someone might have on it and/or where I can go to get more. Thanks, Bob

[Pat in Virginia]

Another place to go fishing for information is:

http://www.mlagb.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.pl .

It's the Muzzle Loader Association of Great Britain forum.

I realize you are not asking about a British arm, but there are a lot of knowledgeable people who frequent that site from all over the world.

Another forum less likely, but still with possibilities is:

http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/forums/4/British-Flint-and-Percussion-Arms .

The same comment applies to it as I made for the MLAGB forum.

Oh, you really should make some pictures available. Without them it will be very hard for people to respond.


Pat

[Southron Sr.]

Here is an aricle on the Lorenz by the Dean of arms historians, the N-SSA's Joe Bilby:

http://www.washingtonbluerifles.com/bilbylorenz.htm

Enjoy!

[Don Dixon]

Bob,

I can make a few comments regarding your Austrian firearm, but would need some photographs and measurements for a definitive opinion.

First, it is not a Jäger rifle. Jägers had an octagonal barrel almost to the muzzle (where they were turned down to accept the socket of the sword bayonet), and had no barrel bands.

You may have a Muster 1854 or 1862 Extra-Korps-Gewehr. These were short, carbine length rifles which were issued to support troops (engineers, sappers, train [logistics], sanitary [medical service], and military police) who needed something more effective than a single shot handgun, but were not expected to stand in the line of battle. The Extra Corps arms may be found with both the fixed Type I sight, or two variations of the long range Type II sight (the regular infantry rifle and a shorter carbine type). The barrel length in the Extra Corps rifle will be approximately 666 mm/26.25 inches. Since they were made with a combination of hand and machine technology, measurements vary. They had two "bands:" the nose cap, and a second about one third of the way down the forestock.

The lack of markings on the lock, and the small number of assemblers and proof marks on the barrel tend to indicate a firearm that was built by one of the Austrian arms contractors for export, rather than for the Austro-Hungarian Army.

After the Civil War, the Federal stocks of their own and captured Confederate weapons were sold off as surplus, as were the Austro-Hungarian Army weapons as the System Lorenz arms went out of service. Various "gunsmiths" butchered them in various ways for sale to civilians and for the African trade. You may have one of these arms.

If you would care to send me some photographs, we can establish further contact through the board's private message system.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

[poppi66]

12491253125012511252
Bob,


Don; Thank you very much for your comments and insight. I am attaching five photos to this post. The musket is presently with Jim McKee at Fort Anderson (NC) so I cannot measure the barrel length right now but it is shorter than his Lorenz by about 7 or 8 inches. I will be seeing him tomorrow evening at a roundtable meeting so I will probably get it back then and I can get an exact measurement. Thanks again for your help, and to all the others who have responded with valuable information which I will search out.
Bob Morris...Greatgrandson of William Armstrong, Co.H, Heavy Artillery, 2nd Pennsylvania




I can make a few comments regarding your Austrian firearm, but would need some photographs and measurements for a definitive opinion.

First, it is not a Jäger rifle. Jägers had an octagonal barrel almost to the muzzle (where they were turned down to accept the socket of the sword bayonet), and had no barrel bands.

You may have a Muster 1854 or 1862 Extra-Korps-Gewehr. These were short, carbine length rifles which were issued to support troops (engineers, sappers, train [logistics], sanitary [medical service], and military police) who needed something more effective than a single shot handgun, but were not expected to stand in the line of battle. The Extra Corps arms may be found with both the fixed Type I sight, or two variations of the long range Type II sight (the regular infantry rifle and a shorter carbine type). The barrel length in the Extra Corps rifle will be approximately 666 mm/26.25 inches. Since they were made with a combination of hand and machine technology, measurements vary. They had two "bands:" the nose cap, and a second about one third of the way down the forestock.

The lack of markings on the lock, and the small number of assemblers and proof marks on the barrel tend to indicate a firearm that was built by one of the Austrian arms contractors for export, rather than for the Austro-Hungarian Army.

After the Civil War, the Federal stocks of their own and captured Confederate weapons were sold off as surplus, as were the Austro-Hungarian Army weapons as the System Lorenz arms went out of service. Various "gunsmiths" butchered them in various ways for sale to civilians and for the African trade. You may have one of these arms.

If you would care to send me some photographs, we can establish further contact through the board's private message system.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

[Don Dixon]

Bob,

Thank you for posting the photos.

My initial impression is that it is an M1854 infantry rifle which was cut down after the Civil War. The Extra Corps rifle is approximately 11 inches shorter than the infantry rifle, not seven or eight inches. The following - plus the measurement of the barrel - should tell one way or the other.

When you get the rifle back, could you please post a photo of the forend showing from the muzzle rearwards to just after the second band.

Two other questions:

Does it have a cheek piece on the buttstock on the side opposite the percussion lock?

Does the front of the second band set back apporximately 11 inches (plus or minus 1/8th inch) from the muzzle?

Regards,
Don

[poppi66]

Don;

I have attached photos of the forward end of the musket along with a photo of the off-side of the stock. Note that the forward band is not there and I do not have one for it.

To answer your questions, there is not, nor has there ever been a cheekrest on off-side of the stock............the distance from the muzzle to the closest band is approximately 5 inches.

I appreciate your interest and help.

Regards, Bob

1264126512661267

[Don Dixon]

Bob,

As I suspected, your firearm is a post Civil War cut down of a Muster 1854, Type II, Austro-Hungarian Army (k.k. Army) infantry rifle. In its original form, it was built for export by one of the contractors who built rifles for the k.k. Army. All M1854s built for the k.k. Army had cheeck pieces on the butt stock, and had the Kaiser's double headed eagle and the date the lock was manufactured stamped on the lock plate. The barrels of k.k. Army weapons were liberally marked with assemblers, proof, and unit markings, while yours is not. The barrels of arms built for export have significantly fewer marks. And, the front sight is not typical of M1854 k.k. Army arms.

Your original question was about value. No knowledgeable collector or reputable dealer would be interested in it except as a source of parts for possible restoration of other arms. As it stands, it is what you've been using it for; a wall hanger. One occasionally sees pieces like this advertised by dealers as Civil War arms at inflated prices. Such a description is an example of very questionable dealer sales puffery. I paid $250 for the last rifle like it that I bought, and the metal on that one was in better condition. As with anything, your mileage may vary.

Regards,
Don

[poppi66]

Thank you Don for your review of this old firearm. At least I know what it is now. It's an awesome looking musket and always evokes plenty of admiring comments and gets hefted with much animation when I hand it to someone to look at. Good to be able to tell the story of how these got here to the US and what happened later........Bob