1860 Henry

[Bob Lintner]

For what it's worth, I just received an e-mail from Henry Rifles here in N.J. and it states they are planning to build a repro 1860 Henry by the end of 2013. Just passing along the info.
Bob Lintner

[Maillemaker]

Cool info!

I don't know much about the Henry rifles. I assume these are black powder cartridge guns?

Steve

[Maillemaker]

Looks like the original 1860 Henry used a .44 rimfire cartridge, and reproductions use a 44-40 centerfire cartridge.

Steve

[Bullseye54]

instead of the 44-40, 45LC seems the way to go..

[Mike McDaniel]

The question is, are they really manufacturing a Henry for themselves, or importing a Uberti and putting their markings on it. I'd bet on the latter.

[Maillemaker]

The question is, are they really manufacturing a Henry for themselves, or importing a Uberti and putting their markings on it. I'd bet on the latter.

Well, this would seem to be a big change for the company. Right on the front page of their web site it says, "Made in America or not made at all."

http://henryrepeating.com/henry-rifles.cfm

And their corporate motto is, “Made in America and Priced Right”.

Steve

[MR. GADGET]

Well, this would seem to be a big change for the company. Right on the front page of their web site it says, "Made in America or not made at all."

http://henryrepeating.com/henry-rifles.cfm

And their corporate motto is, “Made in America and Priced Right”.

Steve

I think they are a great gun builder, and as stated, mad in the USA, it would be cool if they build one that we can use.

I really hope that they build to spec so it is N-SSA approved.

[Edwin Flint]

I think the preferred round is the 44-40. Accuracy achieved Easier than with 45 LC.

[FirinFlatTop]

"preferred round is the 44-40. Accuracy achieved Easier than with 45 LC."

Why would you say this, What makes the .45 colt harder to achieve accuracy?


Thanks RC

[Edwin Flint]

It is just observation and listening to shooters. For every 45 LC on the line, I see, there are at least 5, if not more, 44-40. I have spoken to several former 45 LC shooters that switched to 44-40 to get the improved accuracy associated with the round.

Accuracy can be achieved with the 45 LC, but it is more difficult to do so I am told.

As to why, I suppose there might be many reasons, I don't know. One reason I suspect is the case design of the 44-40 leads to better sealing of the gases. Less gas leakage leads to consistent performance. I suspect barrel twist may also have something to do with it.

I will leave it to others to explain why there is such a difference

[Rebel Dave]

The .45 Colt (.45 long colt) was never used as a rifle round, back in the day. Since then the cartrige has been changed a little.
The rim is larger than the old baloon head cases. This larger rim allows it to be used in modern made replica rifles, as it can be extracted (ejected). This being said, the .45 colt is a straight wall cartridge. The .45 colt does not lend itself to low pressure target loads, very well in most cases (you might have an exception). Upon ignition the case does not expand as well, as bottle neck cases (like the 44/40), hence you get a certain amount of blow back in the chaimber, every time a round is fired. With black powder this can be a hassle on the line, shooting in competition, as your rifle tends to jam up from the fowling being blown back along side the shell, in the chaimber. In extreme situations it might even jam completely, with the lever not able to be cycled.


I have 3 repro winchesters in .45 colt , that I shoot with black powder. I put as much 3f blk in the case as I can, and compress it. Two of the guns still have excess blow back, the other I can shoot all day, with no problems. the guns are two Ubertis, a 66 short rifle, and a reg rifle. The other is a Chaparral Md 1873, that i can shoot all day.


Some ways to help .45 colt in Rifles are, to use pure soft lead, this will help the bullet expand into the grooves on ignition, use lots of lube compatable with black powder, and as much powder as you can.


Rebel Dave aka Dave C. 14th Miss

[Jim Wimbish, 10395]

I have heard exactly what Dave has about the 45 Colt cartridge in the Henry rifle. I almost switched from 45 Colt to 44/40 because of all of the reported problems with blow back. However, I decided to stick with the 45 Colt Uberti Model 1860 Henry and have not been having blow back issues, at least so far. My cases seem to be expanding as they should and there is very little if any blow back on the sides of the cases with none reaching the action. The only residue that I get in the action is due to the cases being extracted. I have no doubt that the problem is real, but it appears that at least some of the Ubertis work properly with 45 Colt. Personally, I like the cartridge as it has a larger case capacity than the 44/40 and you can use carbide dies since it is a straight wall case. Just for the record, my Uberti was imported by EMF in California. I bought it secondhand. Kind of ironic that I got a great Henry through the state that is so nutso about gun control. I believe that the 45 Colt is actually closer to the original 44 Rimfire than the 44/40 for authenticity.

Perhaps some other Uberti shooters who have not had blow back probems with the Henry in 45 Colt will also weigh in on this thread and say what they have done to eliminate the problem in their gun.

[Blair]

I have to ask... is the Henry Arms Co. going to actually reproduce a copy or the Newhaven Arms Co of the 1860 repeating Rifle?/like Uberti is producing/ and is approved by N-SSA SAC?
I care not what caliber the arm is as long as the gun is of a period type... and the Henry Armes Co. is not going to produce that type of weapon. Without major changes in their production.
(just my opinion)
Blair

[Jim Wimbish, 10395]

Here's my theory on how Henry will make the gun. They will make some of the parts, the ones that overlap with their current production guns. The rest they will get from Uberti. Then gun will be assembled in US. Voila, you have a 100% US made Henry.

[Blair]

Please explain how part Italian and part US made parts and pieces combined, equal 100% American made?

[Jim Wimbish, 10395]

If it is assembled in the good old US of A then I believe they can get away with calling it made in the USA. The origin of parts is a slippery slope that many have argued about in the past. With the global econony, it has become impossible to make the distinction based on parts. "Made in" now means "assmbled in" with parts that could be from anywhere. Try proving that over 50% of the parts came from overseas, particularly when the foreign made parts have had some small amount of hand work done to them. And that is just if you want to use the 50% criteria.

[norman horne, 12321]

I have watched a program on one of the "outdoor" channels where someome is interviewing the owner/CEO of the modern Henry Arms Co. He stresses the point that all their arms are made in America. He also says that some of their parts are not made in the Henry factory, but purchased from contracted vendors; but that these parts are also made in American factories. Gonna be interesting to see if they continue this with their "supposed to come out with" reproduction.

[Ron/The Old Reb]

There is a company in northeast PA. that is assembling flat screen TV's from foreign made parts and advertising them as made in the USA. So I guess it's legal.

[Bob Lintner]

If anyone has a question, I suggest contacting the source-henry repeating arms! An e-mail to: Catherine Scarpa (customer service) at kathy@henryrepeatingarms.com should do it. It sure beats second-guessing!
Bob

[Jim Wimbish, 10395]

You speculate before something is made. Until the gun is in production, I don't care what plans they have for sourcing parts for a gun that currently doesn't exist. It is a fair question to ask customer service once the gun is actually being produced.

[R Filbert]

I have had both types ahd from my observations I have found the 44-40 to be a cleaner shooting arm compaired to the 45 long colt- it seems the long colt gets dirty a lot faster than the 44-40 and as the last fellow stated is easyer to acheive accuracy from. As he stated Only my observations! R Filbert.

[4440]

I have a 44-40 and 45 Colt rifle. The issue with the 45 colt is that the chamber has more windage (clearance between the cartridge and chamber) thanks to SAAMI specs...probably a carry over from black powder days when they wanted the revolvers to still chamber ammunition even after they were heavily fouled.

Anyway, I get absolutely NO blow by on my 45 Colt cases and accuracy has been first rate....on par with my 44-40.

1.) use .456"-.457" bullets, just like the original cartridge. That takes up more of the windage in the chamber and centers the cartridge. The oversized bullets size down nicely to fit the .4525" groove just fine and accuracy is :D.
2.) partial size the case to about 1/16" below where the base of the bullet rests.
3.) anneal the case necks

4440

[4440]

The .45 Colt (.45 long colt) was never used as a rifle round, back in the day. Since then the cartrige has been changed a little. The rim is larger than the old balloon head cases. This larger rim allows it to be used in modern made replica rifles, as it can be extracted (ejected).........
Rebel Dave aka Dave C. 14th Miss

Rebel Dave,
Excellent post by you on the previous page. I just shortened it a bit to the reference to balloon head 45 Colt cases. I have some and the ones I have (WRA CO and UMC headstamps) actually measure the same as modern brass. The difference is that modern brass has a shallow groove cut into the base of the case wheras the old bh cases do not. That allows the extractor to get more of a hold on the case rim.

The larger 45 Colt rims were on gov't made cases intended for the early arm revolver. I have some of those and the larger rim will not allow them to function in the levergun nor in the Ruger revolver I have.......


4440

[Muley Gil]

Rebel Dave,
Excellent post by you on the previous page. I just shortened it a bit to the reference to balloon head 45 Colt cases. I have some and the ones I have (WRA CO and UMC headstamps) actually measure the same as modern brass. The difference is that modern brass has a shallow groove cut into the base of the case wheras the old bh cases do not. That allows the extractor to get more of a hold on the case rim.

The larger 45 Colt rims were on gov't made cases intended for the early arm revolver. I have some of those and the larger rim will not allow them to function in the levergun nor in the Ruger revolver I have.......


4440

The .45 Frankford Arsenal round was designed for the 1909 Colt revolver (a New Service variation), which was a stopgap measure between the various Colt .38 Long Colt double action revolvers and the 1911 autoloader.

[Terry Davis 10639]

I have a 44-40 and 45 Colt rifle. The issue with the 45 colt is that the chamber has more windage (clearance between the cartridge and chamber) thanks to SAAMI specs...probably a carry over from black powder days when they wanted the revolvers to still chamber ammunition even after they were heavily fouled.

Anyway, I get absolutely NO blow by on my 45 Colt cases and accuracy has been first rate....on par with my 44-40.

1.) use .456"-.457" bullets, just like the original cartridge. That takes up more of the windage in the chamber and centers the cartridge. The oversized bullets size down nicely to fit the .4525" groove just fine and accuracy is :D.
2.) partial size the case to about 1/16" below where the base of the bullet rests.
3.) anneal the case necks

4440

I'd love to know what powder and charge you are using. I have yet to find a BP load that my 45 LC Henry will keep on a paper plate at 50 yards, and I have tried quite a few combinations. Smokeless loads shoot fine.

Terry

[ian45662]

20 grains of 2F and the lee 405 hollow base bullet sized down to .452 in an annealed and fire formed neck sized Winchester case has yielded EXCELLENT results for me and the cases come out as clean as the went in...... Well on the outside that is. Sounds pretty unorthodox but it works.

[Blair]

I like the 250 gr bullet with a 31 gr 3f powder charge.
All other factors being the same.
Works well for me in four lever rifles and in five revolvers.
Just a thought,

[Jim Wimbish, 10395]

Blair,

Sounds interesting. I will give it a try in my Uberti 1860 which shoots great with Accurate #5. I planned on working up loads from around 26 grains with a 255 grain bullet. Do you use soft lead or a slightly hard alloy?

Thanks

[Blair]

Jim,

Hard lead with modern lube.

[4440]

I'd love to know what powder and charge you are using. I have yet to find a BP load that my 45 LC Henry will keep on a paper plate at 50 yards, and I have tried quite a few combinations. Smokeless loads shoot fine.

Terry

Terry,
I was using the RCBS 2 lube grooved bullet that is like the Lyman 452190 except that it has a small ledge exposed on the front portion of the front driving band with 35 grs of Swiss FFG powder. Accuracy has been very very good. :D

452190 left / RCBS 2nd from left
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/45Coltbullets2jpg-1.jpg

About 6 months ago, I worked with Accurate Mold on a new 45 Colt design that would carry enough lube for repeated shots using Goex that would give good downrange accuracy beyond 100 yards. The profile is the same as the 43-215C (below) which has worked very well in the 44-40. B
Bullet weight is 260 grs.
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector Cartridges/44largelubec.jpg

I haven't had the chance to work with The Accurate 46-260F very much yet but I hope that it works as well as the 43-215C has. If you want to give it a try, send me a PM and I'll send you a dozen or so to test.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-260F-D.png

4440